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To: BlackElk

Yes, the catholic (universal) not the Catholic church will last forever. The catholic church consists of the Body of Christ and nothing will prevail against her. The Catholic Church will fall one day, as will other denominations, but the universal Body of Christ will last forever. ALL believers are part of that Body.


454 posted on 09/09/2009 10:33:57 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary
Yes, the Catholic (universal) not the Catholic church will last forever.

What a confused, inherently-contradictory statement. Bizarre.

The Catholic Church consists of the Body of Christ and nothing will prevail against her.

Correct!

465 posted on 09/10/2009 6:03:22 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Marysecretary
Mary, I am not going to expand this historically senseless argument to include a gunfight with you. I recognize you from your many posts on FR to be a fellow Christian of good will and sincere faith and very substantial quality.

Your faith is not, however, the Roman Catholic Faith. You are, in a broad sense, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ (the Catholic Church) in that you are baptized and love and serve our Lord but many of your beliefs are not consistent with Catholicism. You do not pretend and never have pretended otherwise. You are honest as to the terms of your faith. So am I.

If one were to say that one Christian theology is as good as any other, one would be wrong. There is Truth and there is that which is not true (however sincerely held and lived).

The Roman Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ on Simon bar Jonah as Peter will not fall because Jesus Christ promised that He would be with it all days until the end of the world. He can be depended upon not to lie. All Christian believers (however imperfect their respective beliefs) ARE, in a significant and sufficient sense, part of the Mystical Body of Christ and that Roman Catholic Church will last forever, as promised.

Not to argue but to explain one reason why I will NEVER change my mind (any more than you are likely to change yours), I was a history major as an undergraduate after having the advantage of a Jesuit prep school education so long ago that the Jebbies were still militantly Catholic rather than worshiping at the altar of Karl Marx/Vlad Lenin/Mao/Ho as they do today.

I am not likely to believe ever that Jesus Christ, though saying He was establishing Hos Church on Peter, somehow intended it to be dormant for about 1500 years until a previously obscure and seriously malcontent Augustinian monk would suddenly "enlighten" the world of Christianity with his impertinent "theses" tacked to the door of the cathedral at Wittenberg, thereby trumping Jesus Christ Himself in the founding of what passes in non-Catholic circles as the "Christian church(es)."

This was accompanied by a complete absence of apostolic succession among them, an end to actual Masses among them, the beginning of a notion that the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are not present in the sacrament of the altar (despite Christ's admonition that eating His Flesh and Drinking His Blood is necessary to see God/assent to salvation, with exceptions applied in judgment with mercy). Oh, it is said by those without apostolic succession (and therefore without the sacrament of Holy Orders), there are other passages justifying receiving "in the spirit" and some believe that Christ could not have meant the Real Presence in the Eucharist (because the reformed disagreed with Him). Other sacraments and even some books of Old Testament Scripture (despite the notion of "sola Scriptura") have been generally jettisoned by the reformed to fit reformed theology. Even Luther did not pretend to have the authority to remove the Epistle of James (which he denigrated as an "epistle of straw" while saying "sola Scriptura"). Of course, if God Himself inspired each and every book of Scripture and wrote that one through James as His Scribe, Luther was criticizing a far more reliable Author than James.

The reform will be 500 years old in about 8 years and has not prevailed yet nor will it, regardless of the thousands of disagreeing sects that grew out of the unpleasantness at Wittenberg which seem not to prevail over one another much less over Rome. Outside of Catholicism, only Orthodoxy and a handful of truly tiny schismatic sects have valid apostolic succession, valid Masses, a full schedule of valid sacraments (more than Baptism and Marriage).

With those exceptions, the rest of Christianity labors without the Mass, without Apostolic Succession, without the sacraments of Penance, the Holy Eucharist, Confirmation, Holy Orders or Extreme Unction and without the guidance of a central hierarchy and papacy established at the outset by the Savior.

There is an apparent notion that Luther merely crystallized for moderns beliefs held from the beginning by some ill-defined and less specifically recorded shadowy Christian dissenters from Rome who were the "real church" but suppressed by Roman treachery and forced underground. This theory is, practically speaking, not likely to be proven sufficiently to attract any well-catechized Catholics. Luther was a Martin come far too lately.

The best Christian I have ever known (and ever hope to know),was my mother's best friend Hilda, a very old-fashioned Methodist of the no coffee-drinking, no caffeine, no alcohol, no dancing, no card-playing sort. And yet, Hilda was great fun and a wonderful hostess and a truly wonderful person. She accomplished a wonderful and holy life in service to the Lord in the absence of the Mass and most sacraments and the graces emanating therefrom. Her love and personal generosity were legend and justifiably so. I suspect much of the same could be said of Marysecretary although I would disagree with your theology as I did with Hilda's.

477 posted on 09/10/2009 9:10:31 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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