Latest Joseph Smith Papers volume presents facsimiles of early revelation manuscripts

Lds Church News ^ | Sept. 19, 2009 | R. Scott Lloyd

[ColdSteelTalon]

let’s see...that version came along about 1’500 years after the original....bad choice, totally incomplete

If you are referring to the KJV being a bad choice I will take the KJV over the corrupt Alexandrian descendent bibles any day of the week. At least the KJV was taken by the voluminus greek/byzantine manuscripts, of which there are more than 4000 extant manuscripts. The Alexandrian only has three extant manuscripts. One of which is a latin translation of the original greek. Todays modern translations are taken from the Alexandrian giving them a very New Age flavor.

[Elsie]

I tend to stick with KJV and call it done.

That'll work; UNLESS...

You are Spanish, or German, or Chinese, or French...

[Elsie]

If you are referring to the KJV being a bad choice I will take the KJV over the corrupt Alexandrian descendent bibles any day of the week.

 

 

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

 

 No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

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Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

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Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

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What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[aruanan]

If you are referring to the KJV being a bad choice I will take the KJV over the corrupt Alexandrian descendent bibles any day of the week.

This is something I've heard all the time from those devoted to KJV-olatry. So, tell us, what is "corrupt" about the Alexandrian text and then demonstrate, using standard techniques of linguistic and textual analysis, how it differs from the autograph texts.

[aruanan]

"I don't think there should be a concern about that," Brother Jensen said. "One of the tenets of Mormonism, then and now, is continual revelation." He added, concerning the written revelations, "These were living, breathing documents to Joseph Smith and to others."

I guess he would have fit in well with the liberal members of the U.S. Supreme Court.

[Brookhaven]

Kinda like NIV and all the other permutations. I tend to stick with KJV and call it done.

Why would there be a discussion about Bible translations on a thread about the Book of Mormon?

The only logical reasons I can think of are: 1. To sidetrack the discussion. 2. To inject the idea that the Bible contains errors, and thus deflect any critisism of the Book of Mormon's translation errors/revisions. Either way, it would seem the person more concerned about defending the Book of Mormon (by creating doubt about the Bible) than actually having a serious discussion about the Book of Mormon.

[Godzilla]

Why would there be a discussion about Bible translations on a thread about the Book of Mormon?

Very perceptive Brook. I don't know how much you follow these threads, but it is a common ruse to side track the discussion. Mormons will even go as far as starting to cite/link to atheist sites to bolster their argument.

[TheZMan]

No, it’s to draw a parallel between what I consider wrongful rewrites of the Bible with what I assume would be considered wrongful rewrites of the Mormon texts.

Personally I put no faith at all in the Mormon ideologies as I’m a Baptist. “No man cometh unto the Father but by me”, and all that.

[rom]

Now I see where Wingdings comes from.

[Brookhaven]

No, it’s to draw a parallel between what I consider wrongful rewrites of the Bible with what I assume would be considered wrongful rewrites of the Mormon texts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don’t see them as being parallel at all.

Original copies of the first printing of the Book of Mormon (exactly as Smith wrote and approved) are still in existance today. Why make changes when you have the original?

The Bible translations you refer to are just that, TRANSLATIONS from the original into English. No different than translations into French, German, or Korean. Nobody is claiming a translation is inspired the way the original document is.

A better parallel would be what happened in Greece. The New Testament, of course, was originally written in Greek. Greek speaking nations have always enjoyed the advantage of being able to read the New Testament in the original Greek. A number of years ago, a group decided they were going to “update” the Greek NT into “modern” Greek (what they ended up with was a highly revised/redacted Greek NT.) This caused quite a firestorm as I understand it.

The attempted Greek NT update and the BOM update are parallel situations. In both cases you had the original document (or pretty close in the Greek case) that was not being translated, but updated/modified by someone that wanted to put a different theological spin on it.

I understand your worries with some translations, but se still have the source documents (in the original language) we can use to verify any Bible translation. The Mormons are essentially modifying the original, not making a translation.

[Elsie]

No, it’s to draw a parallel between what I consider wrongful rewrites of the Bible with what I assume would be considered wrongful rewrites of the Mormon texts.

Except NO ONE says that the early transcriptions of the BIBLE are WRONG - just that our knowledge of ancient languages keeps getting better and better.

[Elsie]

and Wingdings 2
and Wingdings 3 as well!!!

[ColdSteelTalon]

This is something I've heard all the time from those devoted to KJV-olatry.

Looks like you already have an opinion about me, thats very wrong. As far as textual criticism is concerned. Look at who is pushing it and what they believe. Westcott and Hort were 19th century occultists. Look up the "Ghostly guild" look at the lives of the people who came up with their so-called greek text. Look at the secret meetings that were part and parcel with the RSV translation committee.

A lot of apostate hands are on the modern versions and the greek text that backs those translations.

As far as the autographs are concerned they no longer exist but I have more than 4500 greek texts that backup my KJV as opposed to the 3 that are Alexandrian in origin.

Many of the proponents of the modern versions don't even believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Or in salvation by faith alone in Jesus. Why would I listen to anything they had to say?

I don't read after non-believers.

[BlueMoose]

Now we are getting personal again.

[BlueMoose]

Again

[rom]

What? The NIV and NASB give us the famous John 1:1-14 passage that Jesus IS God. Show me how they deny that Jesus is the Son of God please. Or that these translations deny salvation by faith alone in Jesus. I didn’t realize that the Pauline Epistles were removed (is Ephesians not found in the NIV?). Or that John 3:16 was re-written. Matthew 3:16 reads, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” in the NIV.

Those are ad-hominem attacks that you lay out, they bear nothing on the actual translations themselves. There is no single doctrine that is distorted or removed in NIV or NASB (my favorite translation) that is in the KJV.

The only major thing that is removed is the 1 John passage that has the doctrine of the Trinity spelled out unambiguously (”and these three are one”). However there is a footnote in all version of the NIV or NASB that tell us that this is not found in the oldest and best manuscripts.

All of that said, I like the KJV of the Bible. It reads like poetry in lots of areas. But, for modern audiences it can be a little hard to understand. But there is the NKJV which uses the same source manuscripts as the KJV if you want a more modern translation.

[david52]

I have spent awhile reading all the posts on the Joseph Smith Papers and was a bit let down by the type of comments made back and forth. A friend of mine just recently commented that someone from the political far right will look with skepticism and really not listen to the words of someone from the left no matter his or her position in the world and vise versa. The Nazis during WW II used propaganda to make a caricature of the Jewish people so no one would feel they were actually human and of worth so they could say and do anything to them. Protestants in all of their diverse denominations, Catholics, Greek orthodox, Mormons, and all non Christians are not caricatures of anything. Their beliefs are rich and diverse. They are worthy of understanding and the freedom from our ignorance of their true beliefs and practices. “Mircea Eliade, a historian of religions, has argued,’There is, indeed, only one way of understanding a cultural phenomenon which is alien to one’s own ideological pattern, and that is to place oneself at its very center and from there to track down all the values that radiate from it... Before we proceed to judge it we must fully understand it and become imbued, as it were, with its ideology, whatever form it may take- myth, symbol, rite, social attitude’.”

I might be wrong, but it seemed that most of the persons responding claimed some christian background in their lives. What does this mean; “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:35. I found very little of this love that Christ talked about as uninformed caricatures were used to make hurtful and malicious comments about someone’s faith.

The tone I might add,in some of the responses sounded very near to the type of comments that might have been found in the early 1900’s in the southern part of the united states about black people.

by the way this post is not to you in particular but to all the persons who posted.

[rom]

Welcome to FreeRepublic!

Let me just remind you of the words of THE Savior Jesus Christ: “I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

You have managed quite clumsily in the space of two paragraphs to equate those of us in this thread who are exposing the fraud known as Joseph Smith to Nazis and Racists. Because obviously, we’re trying to segregate Mormons from the rest of society, and/or gas them to death.

Brilliant analysis.

Why do Mormons always act so grieved when people expose the charlatan that is Joseph Smith?

Remember: If the words of Jesus are true (and I believe they are) the vast majority of Mormons are pretty much doomed to an eternity in Hell. To keep them ignorant of that fact is NOT love, it is HATRED.

The only way to break them out of the cult and into the arms of the TRUE God is to preach the gospel to them and show them that they can be saved through Faith in the Risen Son of God Jesus Christ, who died as the ultimate atonement for our sins against our Maker.

Those who expose Mormonism understand it and its fraudulent origins better than those who profess to be Mormons.

In some ways, it has to be hard to be a devout Mormon anymore (praise the Lord!) because you can find out in about 15 minutes via Google that Mormonism doesn’t have a single solitary shred of evidence going for it — and that the “prophet” was a sham.

[Elsie]

They are worthy of understanding and the freedom from our ignorance of their true beliefs and practices.

Can't we all just get along???

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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,

“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

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If a person wants to start his own 'religion' - that's fine with me.

Just don't be dancing on the supposed graves of other religions.

[Elsie]

 

The tone I might add,in some of the responses sounded very near to the type of comments that might have been found in the early 1900’s in the southern part of the united states about black people.

 

 

Speaking of black people...

 

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"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

 

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Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

  2 Nephi 5: 21    'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

  Alma 3: 6    'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

 

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August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

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 1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

 

 

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We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.

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Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

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When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

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When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)