Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: NYer

I am a Calvinist, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

I think you err when you assume that someone who uses the shorthand of “Calvinist” must believe everything Calvin said or did was right.

I think he did a lot of things right. I think he called out a lot of serious errors in the Roman Catholic Church of the time. But you know, he was just a man.

Some call themselves Wesleyan in theology. I don’t think that means they believe everything the Wesleys did was perfect. It’s shorthand, to describe a particular application of what they see as biblical teaching.

A Calvinist essentially agrees with the 5 points (TULIP):

1. The total depravity of man
2. Unconditional election (we don’t get picked because we are specially good in some way)
3. Limited atonement (Jesus died for His people, not the lost)
4. Irresistable grace (You can’t stop God from saving you if He has decided to)
5. Perseverance of the Saints (if you are truly saved, God will not let you go).

There are varieties on the themes above, but when someone says they are a Calvinist, it is just shorthand, usually, for saying they basically agree with the above points.

As for suffering in hell, the Apostle’s Creed reads:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.

So I am not sure why you say traditional Christianity does not believe that Jesus, in some way, “went to hell.”


52 posted on 09/21/2009 12:22:57 PM PDT by Marie2 (The second mouse gets the cheese.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: Marie2

Yes, the Apostles Creed says, “He descended into hell.”

I’ve never really understood what that meant, or where such a position is substantiated in Scripture. That said, it is a fairly standard creed that has withstood centuries; I’m inclined to trust it more than my questions.


58 posted on 09/21/2009 12:47:43 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Marie2; Theo
In his book The Heidelberg Catechism: A Study Guide, OPC minister G. I. Williamson has written:

There is no phrase in the Apostles' Creed that has caused so much difficulty as this: 'He descended into hell.' Also, there is disagreement as to what the ancient church meant when it included these words in this earliest Christian confession. Yet in spite of the difficulty, the church has never been willing to remove these words.

How then shall we understand them? We cannot possibly take these words to mean that Christ, after he died, went to the place where lost men go to suffer forever. We know he did not go there because he told the believing thief who died at his side that he would be with him that very day in paradise (Luke 23:43).

The biblical meaning must be that what Christ suffered on the cross was itself a descent into hell. Now at first sight it might seem ridiculous to say that Jesus, in a few hours of suffering, could have experienced hell to the fullest. But remember, he was divine as well as human. Remember, too, that his human nature was sinless. Just imagine how great the suffering must have been for him when he was forsaken by God. Yes, because of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, it was possible for him to suffer the full measure of the infinite wrath and curse of God—what damnation is for the wicked. And because he did, you and I can be sure that God's justice is fully satisfied, so that we shall escape that damnation. Here is the Christian's solid basis for hope.

79 posted on 09/21/2009 1:51:47 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (What is coming next?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Marie2

Interesting. You believe God has picked who He has saved, and that not everyone can be saved?

Where is our choice in the matter?


80 posted on 09/21/2009 1:54:50 PM PDT by RinaseaofDs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Marie2
I am a Calvinist, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

I think you err when you assume that someone who uses the shorthand of “Calvinist” must believe everything Calvin said or did was right.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are a Cafeteria Calvinist; in other words, you pick and choose what it is that you believe. We have many Catholics who fall into that category, as well. They claim to "love" the Catholic Church but pick and choose which doctrines and dogmas they choose to follow. Essentially, by these actions, they have excommunicated themselves from the Catholic Church.

So I am not sure why you say traditional Christianity does not believe that Jesus, in some way, “went to hell.”

St. Peter tells us that Jesus "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19). "Prison" (Greek, Phulake) here refers to hell in the general sense of the place where departed souls rested prior to Jesus’ opening the gates of heaven. The Catechism explains that "he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there" (CCC 632).

After his death Jesus descended into hell to deliver the righteous who awaited him. The Catechism explains,

The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his Resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there . . . It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 632-633)

116 posted on 09/21/2009 3:52:32 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Marie2

Looks to me like he spent a couple of days there, but that could just be my quick reading of it.


439 posted on 09/23/2009 4:30:33 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson