Posted on 09/25/2009 6:53:41 PM PDT by Colofornian
Can you go to heaven if you are only baptized and have not accepted Christ? No
Can you go to heaven if you accept Christ and are not baptized? Yes
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Be careful not to disparage baptism as having no “salvic” qualities.
“”. . . and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand . . .” I Peter 3:21-22
Let’s just agree that obedience is what saves us, a living active faith that leads us to humble ourselves and obey in every way we can. I don’t think any true Christian asks, “Do I have to?” but rather says, “What can I do?”
Infant baptism is not salvific, as Catholics believe. Believer’s baptism, after salvation, certainly is a command from God.
If people want to baptize infants, I have no problem with that. But some faiths believe that it saves them. That I have a problem with. Most fundamental churches believe that believer’s baptism is what’s needed. I just pray any child, baptized or dedicated, is brought up to know and love God. That’s the important thing.
I don’t care what you believe, and I don’t care what religious practices you follow, all the best to you with all of that. But, keep your narrow mindedness and bigotry to yourself - you have no right to impose your beliefs on me.
No I do not. Where did you get that?
I just don’t understand anyone who calls themselves a Christian and who wants to argue about baptism. It’s an act of obedience, an acceptance of God’s grace. What kind of attitude would reject that?
It’s not our responsibility to draw lines, to decide who God lets in and keeps out. Let’s leave that to the Lord and concentrate on growing ourselves in obedience and holiness.
You don’t know — and neither do I — at what point any believer is saved. That’s between him and the Lord. I just wish people would quit drawing lines and deciding where God grants salvation. Just do it all, quit the arguing, and leave it up to Him.
I have honestly tried, Ive had study sessions with Jehovah’s witnesses’? read the bible and have tried my best to follow HIS words but it still feels like no matter what I He doesn’t listen to me :(
Can you go to heaven if you only make a "decision for Christ" and have not picked up your cross and followed Christ? (No) Can you go to heaven if you make a "decision for Christ" and have picked up your cross and followed Christ? (Yes) Seems pretty straightforward to me
(By your same standards then you'd also negate any relevance of "making a decision for Christ"?)
(You sound pretty religiously intolerant of my religious beliefs...hmm...sounds like your def of "bigotry"...Oh, and good job imposing your beliefs on me -- that I'm to keep my thoughts to myself...all the while you talk two-faced -- not keeping your religious thoughts to yourself)
On Religion
I am right, and so’s my dog/god,
All of you are damned.
We eat and sleep, we play all day,
And we don’t want Heaven crammed.
You're the self-appointed referee here. As usual, you're extremely content-poor discussion-wise (what? you can't discuss the issues and always need to drive home the personalities?)
Therefore, if you're going to appeal to your "relational guidelines" (to put them as mildly as I can), and start blowin' your whistle at what you dislike, may I remind you that refs -- self-appointed or otherwise -- can't pick out one team & only concentrate on them).
Therefore, blow your whistle on all sides -- or yield your referee posture.
(Wait a minute. Are you arguing with me about baptism?)
It’s an act of obedience
Show me a line from the New Testament where obedience and baptism are in the same phrase? I mean there might be one, but I can't think of one. (And if you can't, what does that tell you about your sources of what you believe?)
It’s not our responsibility to draw lines, to decide who God lets in and keeps out.
Let me ask you, then...are you not drawling a line excluding children -- a line Jesus philosophically said otherwise? (see below)
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. (Mt. 11:25)
Point: Jesus can reveal what and Who He wants to who He wants (minus your line-drawing against little children)
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mt. 18:3)
Jesus' point: As a primary point of emphasis, we don't need to become more sophisticated in our understanding of who God is; what we need is to increase our trust -- something even a little child can do (think of those insurance caveman commercials)
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Mt. 19:14)
baptism is...an acceptance of God’s grace.
Note how you place the stress on man's acceptance as the foundation of your faith (and thereby lessen the emphasis on God's grace?).
Here's what I'm getting at: "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3)
In your interpretation of 1 Cor. 12:3, would you say the emphasis is on what man says? Or on the Holy Spirit's promptings to lead what man confesses?
If you or I cannot even confess Christ without giving 100% credit to the Holy Spirit, then how can you negate the 100% credit of God's grace acting in the life of a little child?
Now, it seems to me that 8 years old is the perfect age. No one forces a child to be baptized. The child's family is involved and if a parent is against it, the baptism will not take place. Once the decision is made, however, the entire congregation is thrilled and baptisms are so wonderful!
Jesus Himself showed us the way.
The reason is that Mormons think Baptism is some kind of mystical ritual necessary for salvation, instead of being a public testimony of change and an act of obedience that follows salvation.
It’s the same reason they hold surrogate baptisms for the dead. They think God judges technicalities instead of hearts.
I don't take issue with immersion -- 'tis a good practice. I take issue with legalists (like Lds) who believe a person has to be 100% immersed for it to "count."
...8 years old is the perfect age
I'm not taking issue w/8 yo being baptized. I'm taking issue with legalists who say you can't baptize a 7 yr, 364-day yo.
I'm taking issue with blind guides who say a 7 yr, 364-day yo has no sin & is a 100% innocent angel.
And I'm taking issue with two-sided religionists who claim a 7 yr, 364-day yo is without sin and the next day suddenly needs remission for their sins via baptism.
(Which is it?)
Agreed. (Hence they'll re-baptize someone who wasn't baptized in the proper way -- even in the Mormon facility!)
...instead of being a public testimony of change and an act of obedience...
Where is baptism linked in the same phrase in the New Testament to "public testimony of change" -- or something similar to that -- or "an act of obedience"???
(I'm always amazed at how many people described baptism based upon some hearsay they heard their prof or church leader spout -- and not from a NT phrase)
There are a lot of words in the Bible that aren't defined by the Bible, but their history is undersood. The history of Baptism is pretty well understood.
Baptism was associated with repentance. It started before John the Baptist, but is not commanded anywhere in the old Testament. But ceremonial washing with water as symbolic of something spiritual was common. Baptism is not repentance. Repentance is something that takes place in the heart. It was symbolic then, it is symbolic now.
Whether it started out to be anything more than a ceremonial washing, full immersion baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection in a new life. If you watch it, and understand what Christ did, you see it. Most people don't really need a phrase in the Bible or a preacher telling you to get it.
We are commanded to be baptised. But again Baptism is not repentance. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptised. But he repented. He acknowledged his sin, the Lordship of Christ and asked for mercy in his own way and he was saved. No Baptism. So if Baptism doesn't save, but we are commanded to do it. What is it? It is an act of obedience.
Just so you know, I'm Southern Baptist. Our churches will wave baptism for someone who has a medical condition that makes it difficult for them to undergo baptism. We do so by a vote of the membership. We claim authority to do that based on Jesus' promise in Mat 16:19 and Mat 18:18
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I guess you have a different Bible than I do. God Bless
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