“The prophets reveal the prophets. They reveal that which is hidden and sealed.”
Umm...not quite. The Prophets declare the word of God.
“I have no argument with that - but it is not all revealed.”
Actually, enough has been revealed to thoroughly equip the man of God for EVERY good work.
What is the mystery of God?
There are a variety of possibilities. I think Revelations was intended to have multiple meanings, which is why it has brought comfort to so many for 2000 years. However, consider these:
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”
Please note what is the “stewardship from God that was given to [Paul] for you” - “to make the word of God fully known”. Think about it.
Meanwhile, what is “the mystery of God [that] would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets”?
I don’t know, but it is at least possible it refers to the Church of God, which is of course ongoing.
“Who is revealing the prophecy to the Body, but those with the Spirit and the gift of prophecy upon them?”
Well, teachers and preachers could. Unless, of course, you argue that your modern day prophets are busy revealing what John said would remain sealed for some time to come.
You see, to say there are things which haven’t been revealed to us - and I totally agree that is true - is NOT the same as to say that modern day prophets are or CAN reveal them to us.
What does predestination involve, and how did the elect become the elect? Beats me! Nor do I think God will reveal that to modern prophets, any more than He did to Peter or Paul or John. And when we get to heaven, my guess is that we’ll understand enough to know the question has no value.
“Not all who are called Israel are Israel. I say that to you as an exhortation, not an accusation. “
Of course not. However, that line of argument leads to either your claiming I haven’t received the Holy Spirit, or that I’m ignoring Him, while you are not. And that cuts both ways...
“Nope. The Spirit was doing a mighty work then. I think the Catholics were persecuting the true Church according to prophecy, and the Anglicans right after them. Remember Christ said that His Church would always be persecuted and ridiculed.”
Since I’m reading a book about William Tyndale, I’m inclined to agree. However, William Tyndale did a great thing for God, and God honored it. Tyndale’s final words were, “Lord! Open the King of England’s eyes.” Within 4 years, King Henry VIII ensured that an English bible was taken to every church in England, and chained there so that any could come read it.
But William Tyndale WAS strangled and burned. He had no miraculous escape. He didn’t speak in tongues. He didn’t heal the sick. He didn’t claim to be a Prophet of God, revealing mysteries that had previously been hidden.
If the True Israel is filled with Prophets, and miracle workers, and Apostles - where are they, and where have they been for 2000 years?
If you barely know enough Prophets - by your own account - to serve in ONE congregation, then where are they? The only conclusion is that God has been defeated. Or you are wrong.
“Besides, the New Covenant pours out the Spirit on all men. There should be way MORE evidence of Spirit than there was in the past, not way less.”
Either there is, or there isn’t. Either there are LOTS of divine healers, healing the blind, restoring limbs, raising the dead, or there are not. Either there are LOTS of Prophets, receiving divine revelation apart from scripture, or there are not. Either the Holy Spirit is manifested in ways you don’t accept, or there are a lot of spectacular miracle workers running around unnoticed, or God has been beaten.
“I don’t need the answer. I know the answer. I want you, and the other detractors hereon, to seek it out.”
The answer is you are wrong.
Of course they do. But as part of that, they also reveal the work of prior prophets. The Prophecy is one single, organic piece.
Actually, enough has been revealed to thoroughly equip the man of God for EVERY good work.
That is not the point of the Prophecy, nor it's function.
There are a variety of possibilities. I think Revelations was intended to have multiple meanings, which is why it has brought comfort to so many for 2000 years.
I think ALL of the Prophecy is dualistic - One can see alignments in it over and over again. It is not fulfilled until it is fulfilled in every aspect, in a single event.
Please note what is the “stewardship from God that was given to [Paul] for you” - “to make the word of God fully known”. Think about it.
I don't have to think about it. I get what you are saying. Get what I am saying: The spirit of antichrist was working in the church even in Paul's day.
It isn't that I do not have faith in the power of God to overcome the adversary, but neither will I underestimate the adversary in the least. Looking to the Prophecy and to history, one can clearly see that the tools preferred by the adversary are "paganism" and "doctrines of men".
Over and over we have seen it happen. Many times, from the Patriarchs down through both Houses of Israel, and into the Catholics.
Now, God has gone "open source", since the printing press, and a seemingly more distributed model, with schisms in both the Protestant and Liturgical Churches... To a degree, that non-homogeneity is good, as no particular denomination gets the upper hand anymore.
But do you really suppose that the visible church is not every bit as susceptible to the very same tools Ol' Scratch has been using since the beginning?
And the very first thing to go when he begins to distort and raise up his antichrists is not the teachers and the ministers. The first thing to go are the prophets. Teachers can be swayed. Ministers can be influenced by the teachers. The prophets will not move. Look to your Bible and see this pattern. Without revelation, there is no direct communication for correction
The primary break is in the split between the Apostolic Church (The Way), and the take over of Rome (when the seat of the Church "became" Rome). What happened? No more persecution. But no more prophets either. And all kinds of excuses why all the gifts of the Spirit were not around anymore.
Well, teachers and preachers could. Unless, of course, you argue that your modern day prophets are busy revealing what John said would remain sealed for some time to come.
There is no part of the Prophecy which will not be done by Christ's coming in Glory (except those parts which speak to shortly thereafter). I don't understand what you think is to remain sealed. As the time grows nearer, more becomes known, and more can be discerned.
What does predestination involve, and how did the elect become the elect? Beats me! Nor do I think God will reveal that to modern prophets, any more than He did to Peter or Paul or John. And when we get to heaven, my guess is that we’ll understand enough to know the question has no value.
Hallelujah! I couldn't agree more, although I rather think it WILL matter, and will be far grander than anyone ever suspected. At any rate, it is well and good that we do not dwell upon things which ARE the mysteries of God, and which are not revealed to us. It creates confusion. Better to admit we don't know. An excellent point of yours, that all here can learn from.
Of course not. However, that line of argument leads to either your claiming I haven’t received the Holy Spirit, or that I’m ignoring Him, while you are not. And that cuts both ways...
Not at all. I am speaking to an apostate church, not the members in it. Even as there WAS "Israel" within apostate Israel, so I would suppose there are believers scattered throughout all the branches and denominations of the visible church.
But I do know that receiving the Holy Spirit is not something one would forget. If one cannot point to "that day" (and I know many, many who cannot), then I question that they have, in fact, received the Spirit at all.
If you took that more personally than that, it was unintended.
Since I’m reading a book about William Tyndale, I’m inclined to agree. However, William Tyndale did a great thing for God, and God honored it.
I am not critical of the Protestant fathers for the sake of being critical. I think the Protestant Reformation was, and still is, a critical part of God's plan. The creeds and doctrines developed at that time were far better than the horrid conditions which caused the Reformation to be necessary - I believe that God provided for that Reformation, and for the wilderness that the Reformation ultimately escaped to - But everyone knows the errors and compromises that exist therein, which is why the Protestants remain splintered and diverse.
Furthermore, those doctrines and creeds remain, calcified, preserving those errors and enshrining them, for hundreds of years now, even as the Prophecy has unfolded, and knowledge has increased. At what point can the Protestants now claim any "truth" over the Catholics? Aren't their traditions more important to them than the five solas that they so bravely stood upon when they sought to remove themselves from heresy?
If the True Israel is filled with Prophets, and miracle workers, and Apostles - where are they, and where have they been for 2000 years?
They are there, if you'd care to search them out. It took me a very long time to believe and to seek out others who do also. But they are there.
And my own life bears witness to spectacular miracles and visions by the Spirit, and others that I know too. Miraculous healings have come to me, my daughter, my father, and my brother in-law, and many of my friends.
Our Father is faithful to those who trust in Him, and the Spirit works wonders every day. I would encourage y'all to seek out the evidence thereof, for there you will also find the salt of the earth.
But don't look where you'd expect to find such things. God has chosen the foolish things of the world. Seek for Him in humble places that the world ridicules; not in cathedrals or colleges, and places of learned men.
Either the Holy Spirit is manifested in ways you don’t accept, or there are a lot of spectacular miracle workers running around unnoticed, or God has been beaten.
I accept ANY way the Spirit will manifest. But the Bible teaches that He gives to each according to his faith. Ergo, churches which do not expect much, teach their flock not to expect much. Where the Power of God is accepted, taught, and expected, the Spirit pours out like rain.
The answer is you are wrong.
Hmm. Now do I believe you, or my own lyin' eyes and my own healed body? Do I believe you, or the witness of my own walk in the Spirit, and the witness and testimony of many, many others?
This is not even a contest. I know what I know. I am trying to bear witness to you.