Posted on 10/17/2009 5:28:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
Are Mormons Christians? That's one of the biggest issues members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they encounter in today's society.
"To us, to be Christians is to be followers and disciples of Christ," said Steve Stanfill, president of the church's Evansville stake, a group of 12 congregations in Southwestern Indiana, southeastern Illinois and Western Kentucky.
Some groups insist Mormons are not Christians. One reason is differences over the nature of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. As "Christianity Today" once explained it, Mormons teach that God began as a finite being who achieved his exalted rank by "progressing."
"People and even God don't necessarily stay static," Stanfill said. "We believe the Lord expects us to progress. We believe through dedication and faith and through the grace of Jesus Christ we may become like unto him. We believe we become like our Father in heaven. In the eternal course of things, we can become like him. That is our eternal destiny if we do his will."
Stanfill said Mormons do not subscribe to the Nicene Creed, which is used widely in Catholic, Orthodox and many Protestant churches. The creed was an attempt by the fourth century church to explain how the Father, Son and Spirit were distinct, yet one.
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost as three separate and distinct beings," Stanfill said. Latter-day Saints see proof in founder Joseph Smith's "theophany," a vision he had at age 14, of two distinct beings, God and Christ.
"There is a relationship there," Stanfill said. "God the Father is the father of us all. Jesus Christ is our savior." The Holy Spirit provides inspiration and revelation from God, he said.
Another misconception Mormons face, Stanfill said, is that Latter-day Saints practice polygamy.
Polygamy was practiced by early Mormons "under divine direction as it was for periods of time documented in the Old Testament," Stanfill wrote in an e-mail.
The custom officially ceased in 1890 when the church's president and prophet received a revelation to stop it.
Today, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints embraces traditional monogamous marriage as the ideal environment to raise children and teach children the gospel of Jesus Christ," Stanfill wrote.
Despite that, "the modern media have occasionally blurred the distinction between the church and isolated groups in the American West who practice polygamy," and have even mistakenly labeled those groups "fundamentalist Mormons," Stanfill wrote. "These groups have no relationship whatsoever to the church, and we do not have anything in common with their practices, beliefs and doctrine."
The division between the two sides involves more than just polygamy, Stanfill said in a telephone interview. "One of the fundamental tenets of our religion is continuing revelation," he said.
A succession of men has served as prophets and presidents of the church since Smith's day, he said. Mormons believe those men still are guided by new revelations from God.
While some of those other groups may claim to share doctrine with the LDS church, Stanfill said, "if they don't sustain our existing prophet and president they're in the netherlands.... They certainly are not part of the LDS church in any way, shape or form."
Let me get this straight. This Lds leader thinks that Mormons can hitchhike into Christianity without Christians objecting, but when fundamentalist Mormons try to do the same thing in identifying themselves as "Mormons," he thinks the media is misidentifying them. Not only that, he consigns them to the "netherlands"--perhaps a reference to "outer darkness" -- the worse place a Mormon knows of.
(Well there goes that Mormon-propagated myth that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are active living polygamists somewhere in Afterlifeville)
From the article: The custom officially ceased in 1890 when the church's president and prophet received a revelation to stop it.
I'm sorry. But just how was Mormondom supposed to "officially" break up existing unions in 1890? (They couldn't. They didn't). Not only that, but Mormon leaders snuck around under the radar and solemnized at least another couple hundred of NEW "unofficial official" plural unions between 1890-1910. (So much for Mormons redefining yet another word -- this word being the word, "cease").
From the article: Polygamy was practiced by early Mormons "under divine direction as it was for periods of time documented in the Old Testament," Stanfill wrote in an e-mail.
Oh, that's interesting. Where exactly in the Old Testament does it say that God "directed" polygamy? Sarai's the one who decided on her own in Genesis -- as did the household of Jacob. (That was hardly "divine" impetus)
Do Mormons believe that Christ is son of God and died for their sins? Do they believe that there is only one God?
or do they beieve that Thetans have invaded us?
or that we all get to be Gods someday?
Cuz then we might have a problem.
No, not "all" get to be Mormon gods -- just temple Mormons who keep up their tithing/temple recommends and who don't remain single all their lives. (There's no single gods in Kolob Heights)
One of the Lds "prophets" -- Spencer W. Kimball was speaking at a general priesthood meeting and told the crowd: ‘Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight (via closed circuit TV). I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000...Those who obtain their exaltation will have the privilege of begetting spirit offspring in the eternities... (Source: The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, pp. 358-359)
There now, Mormon women. Wouldn't you like to be eternally begetting children to your god-husband forever?
God does not condemn David for his wives and concubines.
They were given to him, He was the King and it was Local Custom.
God loved David because he knew his heart.
David Sinned in taking Bathsheba, Uriah’s wife and then sending Uriah off to be killed.
David Confessed, Repented and was Forgiven.
Those that Accuse the Mormons of Sin, Are you without Sin?
Are FUNDAMENTALIST Latter Days-saints Mormons? That's one of the biggest privledges members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints deny other folks who actually happen to FOLLOW D&C 132 - unlike the wimpy bunch based in Salt Lake City - who are AFRAID of what GOVERNMENT might do to them.
(Evidently they are NOT worried about what GOD will do to them!)
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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SECTION 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines— 2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter. 3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye dammed; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. 5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world. 6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. 8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. 9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name? 10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? 11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was? 12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord. 13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God. 14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed. 15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. 17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. 23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. 25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law. 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. 27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be dammed, saith the Lord. 28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was. 29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne. 30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. 31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. 32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved. 33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham. 34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. 35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it. 36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. 37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. 38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me. 39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord. 40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word. 41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed. 42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery. 43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery. 44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many. 45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time. 46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven. 47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God. 48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven. 49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father. 50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac. 51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. 52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. 53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him. 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. 55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. 56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice. 57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory. 58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto. 59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him. 60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God. 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. 62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified. 64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law. 65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife. 66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
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As far as David's wives go, we're never given a timeline for when he married each of them. (IOW, we don't know if one died before he married another)
We know he did have at least a couple of concubines -- and you're right in using the word "given" -- he inherited them when he became king. (They were part of the palace he inherited).
Concubines were servant girls and often were a part of the custom of peaceful pacts made with surrounding people groups. (They might send the daughter or another woman of a kingdom to another king in hopes of fending off conflict and hostility)
Since God designed that David would inherit the kingdom, concubines and all, of course, why would he condemn him for inheriting servant girls?
David Sinned in taking Bathsheba, Uriah’s wife and then sending Uriah off to be killed. David Confessed, Repented and was Forgiven.
Maybe I'm not reading this right, but are you implying that David's taking of Bathsheba was similar to Mormon polygamy? (If so, show me where the Mormons have ever repented of Polygamy?)
Those that Accuse the Mormons of Sin, Are you without Sin?
Well, according to this logic of yours, if you spoke out against the "same-sex marriages" in Massachusetts or California (when CA was letting them get "married" pre-Prop 8), then somebody could have asked you the question: "Those that Accuse the Homosexuals of Sin, Are you without Sin?"
How about ol’ “Bring’em Young”?
Without sin? Yes or no, yes or no?
lol.
poor mormon women, popping out babies forever
Therein lies the fallacy of Mormons being Christian. The very IDEA that man can become God’s equal is not only the antithesis of Christianity, it is profound blasphemy. Joe was a con man who did jailtime for scamming people in NY using his “magic rock”; he applied the same principles to his “revelations”.
The social aspects of the LDS church are great— they are nice people with good family construct and are generally a moral bunch. As for me, I wouldn’t want to subscribe to a “religion” founded by a guy who was a bigger scumbag than I am.
Um, that’s MALE temple mormons. Women can’t even go to heaven unless their husbands call them into it by their secret name.
Are you saying you are above accusation?
hmmmmm
Huh? and here I always believed that God was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Mark 10:1-20 (New King James Version)
Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.
The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.
And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”
They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’
‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh’;so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter.
So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.
And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
The god(s) of Mormonism are NOT the God of the Bible, and thus Christianity. The God of the Bible is the Creator who has always existed, even before the existence of matter, and thus brought matter into being. To be the Creator of all matter means that He Himself could not consist of matter. The Mormon/LDS god, having at one time been finite, is not the LORD GOD - YHWH Elohim!
1) None of todays mormons are like King David in the least.
2) Polygamy being practiced was the undoing of David’s house, and a perpetual source of strife for Israel - not at all a good example
3) Yes, I will stand and “accuse” mormons of that sin - wherever it was practiced and for as long as it was practiced - whether acknowledged publicly and truthfully by them (they lied far more than they told the truth about that, you know...) because I am without that sin, and I will never cover it, nor justify it or excuse it.
How do you know wht G_d’s stance was in relationship toward David regarding polygamy?
How do you figure that?
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