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To: Mr Rogers
"I guess it is up to one’s tolerance for innovation to decide if Purgatory"

Q. If Purgatory is and innovation of the Catholic Church how is it that the Jews, prior to Christ and the establishment of the Catholic Church, taught that one should pray for the dead.

I cite the historical book of 2-Maccabees Ch. 12 for evidence:

"39 And upon the day following, as the practice had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of those who were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. 40 Now under the coats of every one who was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause for which they were slain. 41 All men therefore, praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, 42 resorted unto prayer and besought Him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, inasmuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those who were slain. 43 And when he had taken a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachmas of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honorably, in that he was mindful of the resurrection. 44 (For if he had not hoped that those who were slain should have risen again, it would have been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) 45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favor laid up for those who died godly, it was a holy and good thought. Thereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. " Third Millennium Bible

34 posted on 11/01/2009 10:45:58 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Did the Jews accept 2 Maccabees as scripture? Nope.

Can one pay cash for forgiveness of sins? Nope, for we read, “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”

And now?

“24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

Of course, you can assume the payment made was for a blood offering that would make everything OK, but the whole scene of Jesus cleansing the Temple kinda puts a damper on that, too. Although I have no doubt that at one time, that passage was used to show paying for an indulgence was OK...

The real problem with Purgatory is not that it relies on a verse (or maybe 3) in the Apocryphal books to set up such a sweeping doctrine, but that it contradicts the finished work of Jesus Christ. Justification, in the New Testament, after the resurrection of Jesus, is spoken of in the past tense.

“And every [Jewish] priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected [past tense] for all time [not just the moment] those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

So NO! There is no cash payment, no good-deed doing, NOTHING left to do to secure our forgiveness of sin. Nothing but to believe in Jesus, for “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”.

“Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.” — Hebrews 10

No penance you do will win you merit with God, nor can any Mass performed or gift given to the Church win you merit with God. JESUS provides the merit to those who believe. And God says, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Perhaps because I’m the father of two adopted kids, I would paraphrase Heb 10:14 as “For by a single offering he has adopted for all time those who are being made part of his family”. The kids I adopted couldn’t speak a word of English when I adopted them. They took a long time to start to act like their parents...but the adoption was once, for all time.

It is finished!


36 posted on 11/01/2009 11:09:01 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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