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To: blackpacific

Hi blackpacific. I am a former Catholic. And I disagree.

The above entry wasn’t so much a defense of the “Supremacy of Scripture” as it was a rebuke to people like me who already adhere to the doctrine. The post serves as a reminder for Protestants to defend the doctrine with love and grace. SO often people who hold to “Scripture alone” will vehemently and passionately defend and preach this doctrine without actually LIVING OUT the very truths Scripture teaches: such as loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you—this includes being gracious to those who disagree with us—like Catholics! :)

Anyhow, here are just a few tenets of Catholic tradition, Scripture contradicts:

1) Purgatory
2) The role of works in salvation.
3) Distinction between venial and mortal sins.
4) The role of the Pope and Magisterium.
5) The mandatory celibacy of pastors
6) The role of works in salvation.
7) The role of Mary: her perpetual virginity after the birth of Christ, her sinlessness, and her bodily Assumption into Heaven.
8) Exclusive sainthood
9) The role of penance and the idea that sacraments are a “means of grace”
10) The re-sacrifice of Christ during the presentation of the Eucharist.
11) The spiritual value of infant baptism.

the list goes on and on.


3 posted on 12/10/2009 3:42:33 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

You must read the heavily abridged and edited version of Scripture.

4 posted on 12/10/2009 6:23:49 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Well you could give lack a declaration that you are infallible, as well as a criteria that qualifies that your declaration that you are infallible was infallible, and that the criteria itself is infallibly defined,, and that your interpretation of a text of Scripture upon which you based your claim of infallibility is infallible. This would eliminate so much confusion, if of course, you infallibly define most of the Bible, and provide an infallible list of all infallibly defined teaching. As well as an infallible interpretation of infallible pronouncements, so that we they know whether to embrace separated brethren, or damn them.


5 posted on 12/10/2009 6:26:12 PM PST by daniel1212 ("hear the word of the gospel, and believe." (Acts 15:7))
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
It's too late in the day to go into massive details now; I'll try to cobble some time together tomorrow to flesh this response out a bit. For now, let me just say that most of these points you say aren't Scriptural merit a mere denial. I will expand a bit at this time on:

1) Purgatory is entirely Scriptural, particularly when dealing with the total Analogy of Scripture. But to be specific, the allusion to Purgatory is unmistakable in 2 Maccabees 12, which is certainly Scripture to us Catholics, and - long story short, for now - only became "unScripture" to Protestants because of the very allusion I note here.

3) Have you never read 1 John 5:16-17? A clearer distinction between mortal and venial sin, and their obvious differences in effect, is hard to find.

5) "Mandatory" celibacy for priests and bishops is only a discipline in the Western - or Latin Rite - Catholic Church. Married priests exist in the various Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Only bishops are universally not allowed to be married. And this could change - though there is little likelihood of that - because no one ever said this was doctrine, it is only a discipline based on, among other things, St. Paul's"opinion" found in 1 Corinthians 7:25-39, with reference also to 7:8-9. Notice, particularly, what St. Paul has to say in verse 8! Celibacy is a gift to the Church as a whole in this vein. And these passages alone - and there are others, too - indicate that it is not "mandatory" that a bishop marry. St. Paul himself, as an Apostle, was also a bishop, yet he says plainly in 7:8 of the above text that he is single and has no intention to marry. Yet this does not disqualify him, does it?

8) You really need to define what you mean by "exclusive sainthood," before this question can even be addressed.

Also, a general observation. A few things on your list do not have massive Scriptural support in any direct sense, though there is, in these cases, still some indirect evidence. Just the same, the Catholic Church does not recognize "Sola Scriptura" as a principle, since, among other things, the statement is self-refuting. "Sola Scriptura," or "Scripture alone," can be nowhere found in the Bible, therefore, it cannot be a Biblical principle,and to insist on the point is, as I already said, to engage in a self-refuting argument.

The Catholic Church regards Sacred Tradition to be authoritative like Scripture. So does does every other Church that has a legitimate claim to being "Apostolic" in its roots, that is, the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, along with Catholicism. Protestants need to ask themselves why this is so. Why do all of the ancient Churches which predated Protestantism and still exist today recognize Tradition along with Scripture as "authoritative"? Upon what authority did they unilaterally decide to jettison Tradition? It certainly wasn't Scriptural authority, since, as already noted, Scripture says nothing whatsoever about Scripture being the only source of authority.

Neither does plain logic or an understanding of early Christian history, since the Bible was not codified in any real sense till the end of the 4th Century, and it was well into the 2nd Century before most local churches spread throughout evangelized territory could have possibly hoped to have had a significant portion of what would later be known as the canonical books of the New Testament.

Therefore, since all still-existing Churches that predate Protestantism recognize Scripture and Tradition, it behooves Protestants to explain how, and by what authority, they had the right to fabricate a "Sola Scriptura" principle to justify the removal of Tradition.

More later tomorrow, if I can.

6 posted on 12/10/2009 7:19:29 PM PST by magisterium
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Hi, I’m a former evangelical.

Are you saying that which isn’t mentioned in scripture is a contradiction of scripture?


22 posted on 12/10/2009 9:51:47 PM PST by papertyger (Representation without taxation is tyranny!)
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