The Importance of Hell [4 reasons]

Redeemer.com ^ | Undated | Tim Keller

[RoadGumby]

Nothing is wrong with that picture at all. It is a picture of consequences of not listening to what you should, of having hard hearts.

[Diapason]

“But God is the father of all of us.”

No, He’s not! Those of us whom He has redeemed, are His adopted sons and daughters. Everyone else is an enemy of God.

[ShadowAce]

To what end does God need hell? Why? What does he get out of it.

Here is what I was taught, and it makes some sense to me:

God created Hell as a place to put Lucifer and the fallen angels. It was not meant for His creation. However, if we choose to follow Satan, rather than God, then we get put in the same place as those we follow. It is not something He would choose to do to His children, but something we have chosen for ourselves (which you have already said you understand).

That is the reason for Hell.

[Freedom_Is_Not_Free]

Hell, as described in this article, is clearly cruel. I refuse to believe that God is so cruel as to allow for it.

[mad_as_he$$]

Can you or anyone show me EXACTLY where the modern concept of hell is noted in the Bible?

[AnotherUnixGeek]

Fear, as was described earlier is not the terror of which you speak and it is disingenuous for you to use that word.

Funny, "disingenuous" is precisely the word I'd apply to your attempts to claim that the word "fear" in this context doesn't mean exactly what most people understand it to mean. Trembling is a physical response to terror, by the way.

Go on believing in you warm and cuddly, no consequences version of God. I hope it serves you well.

Thank you. I likewise wish you the same with your ferocious, vindictive version of God.

[presently no screen name]

Paul speaking to the Philippians (2:12)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

The Amplified Bible translates this verse, "work out-cultivate, carry out to the goal and fully complete - your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling -> (self-distrust, that is, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

Phil 2:13
For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do His good pleasure.

God is always leading our born again spirit, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, in the direction of His will. That's what pleases Him. Yet, we have a say in what takes place in our lives. God puts it in but we have to work it out.

The words 'work out' comprise the verb KATERGAZOMAI in the Greek, and, according to Wuest's Word Studies of the New Testament Greek, means "to carry out to the goal, to carry to its ultimate conclusion. We say, "The student worked out a problem in arithmetic.' That is, he carried the problem to its ultimate conclusion. This is the way that it is used here.

The Philippian Church are exhorted to carry their salvation to its ultimate conclusion, namely Christlikeness. Like it explains, we have to watch ourselves carefully - because of temptation, etc and shrink away from anything that offends God - as we walk out our salvation. (That's the trembling).

[pinkpanther111]

If someone who has never heard of Christ looks at creation and instead of worshipping it, wishes to know about the Creator, I’m sure God would send someone to explain. There are many accounts of missionaries who go to places where Christ has never been heard of and when they meet the locals they are told “We’ve been waiting for you.” Obviously at least one person there recognised that there is a Creator
_____________

I like this story. I have tried to apply those scriptures you posted. I believe that this example explains it.

[RoadGumby]

Thank you. I likewise wish you the same with your ferocious, vindictive version of God.

Take a gander at the Book of Job and take it up with him.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

Take a gander at the Book of Job and take it up with him.

Considering how negative your view of God is, I'd suggest you follow your own advice.

[RoadGumby]

Grow up Geek,

I love my child, but if he is disobedient, he’d better have a modicum of ‘fear’ about him. Does that mean that I am not ‘loving’? It does not.

You, unfortunately do not seem to have read the Bible, and further more, you seem to wish to construct your own ‘fuzzy-bunny’ version of God that you can be comfortable with. You are not in a position to construct ANY god, much less change the God that is. As I said before, He is as He is.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

I love my child, but if he is disobedient, he’d better have a modicum of ‘fear’ about him. Does that mean that I am not ‘loving’? It does not.

This is an inane comparison. No matter how disobedient your child is, you're not going to subject him to physical torture in a prison which you've caused to be created - not for a second, let alone for all eternity. The entire point is that the God you envision is savage and abusive beyond all reason or proportionality.

You, unfortunately do not seem to have read the Bible, and further more, you seem to wish to construct your own ‘fuzzy-bunny’ version of God that you can be comfortable with.

I've read the Old and New Testaments, front to back, repeatedly over the course of my life. I've constructed nothing - I merely observe that you and others like you seem bent on taking the very worst extremes of human cruelty and sadism and and portraying them as basic features of your version of God, so you can then cower in fear of his punishments.

[RoadGumby]

So you know then that God killed 2 that witheld their tithe by lying about the proceeds of the sale of their land?

You know of the priest who died because the wrong offering was burned in the temple.

Of course, your version of ‘fear’ is different than mine. The Bible has in it, I’ve heard, 365 separate instances where the Lord says “Do not fear” or “Fear not”.

Again, Geek, the word ‘fear’ is used not as ‘be terrified’. See here in Exodus 18:

20And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Here is Leviticus 19:

2Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

3Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

What do you suppose the context of the word ‘FEAR’ is in those passages? Could it be more toward ‘respect my position’ rather than ‘be afeared for your life’?

21Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

[RoadGumby]

And add in from Exodus 18:

21Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

Meant to have that in there also.

[wmfights]

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Silverlings I thought this thread was a really good read about whether a soul can be destroyed, or is eternal. As I understand it the verb "destroy" is the same one used in Matt. 9:17 where wineskins are ruined. IOW, once a soul exists it is eternal it just ceases to function for what it was created for.

I know it's a different thread to explore this, but there doesn't seem to be as much "white noise" if you know what I mean. I pinged a couple others to see what their thoughts are.

BTW, Silly I really got a lot out of this thread. Thank you for posting it.

Merry Christmas

[AnotherUnixGeek]

What do you suppose the context of the word ‘FEAR’ is in those passages?

None of these passages introduced the word "fear" into this thread - a quote from St. Paul about "fear and trembling" in working on salvation did, with the obvious inference (due to the subject of this thread) that to not do so would result in an eternity of torture in Hell. There is only one possible meaning of the word "fear" in this context.

[Soothesayer]

Is it possible for someone who simply WANTS to believe in a loving beautiful God but otherwise can’t believe to still wind up in heaven with God?

I don’t know how to explain it.

[Dr. North]

Why can’t the hypothetical person believe?

[Dr. North]

Fear is an emotion evoked by a threat to your safety and well-being. In fact, most people do not respect what they fear - they hate what they fear. You're actually claiming that the emotion we feel toward a violent murderer with the power to end our life is the same emotion we should feel toward God. Again, you sound like you're talking about God's opposite number.

EXACTLY!

[Forest Keeper]

As I understand it the verb "destroy" is the same one used in Matt. 9:17 where wineskins are ruined. IOW, once a soul exists it is eternal it just ceases to function for what it was created for.

I agree with you, WM. I don't think there's any question that the Bible supports an immortal soul going forward:

Daniel 12:2–3 : 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:46 : 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”