Posted on 12/23/2009 5:11:13 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Words. Let us establish the field. Do you believe in the extension of God's Grace to less than all of humanity?
You keep speaking of plans. God is outside of Time. He has no plan - it is meaningless. God is All - He exists everywhere and everywhen. Plan is a succession in time. Meaningless. And what do you mean that God has a plan yet man is accountable?
The Calvinists claim that God made man for hell and some He chose to pull away, and the rest He lets go there. But somehow, even though He creates them for hell, He is not responsible for them winding up there. Are you such a believer?
If God has no plan why were there prophets foreshadowing Christ centuries before he was even born?
God kept reaching out to His People. But we humans, as imperfect as we are, kept misunderstanding Him. Plan? The Church was only for the Jews, according to Jesus. Yet the salvation of the Church was the reaching out to the Gentiles. The entire New Testament was written in Greek. What? Greek? Not Hebrew, not Aramaic, not Syriac. Greek. Some plan. Jesus tells the Apostles to stay away from the Gentiles and that turns out to be the salvation of the Church. The Greeks are the closest to the original Church, as well, to this day.
The Jews who existed during the time of Jesus had no clue as to His being. They were looking for a super David who would lead them to world domination. And that is how the Synoptics are written - as if Jesus was not God, but a super David, an even more favoured of God. Jesus went far beyond the prophesies, but, just as important, He did not fulfill the temporal prophesies as understood by the Jews of the time
Why do you think that the Council of Jamnia finally and completely severed the ties between Christianity (which had been considered a Jewish cult) and Judaism?
the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!
The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.
the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!
The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say,
“God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
Likewise, David said,
“Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble,
and let them get what they deserve.
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs be bent forever.”
Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this, for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them. For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
Notice how God is both kind and severe.
He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree. You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,
“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?
And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?
For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
~ Paul’s Letter to the Romans, all of CHAPTER 11
Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.
the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!
The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say,
“God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
Likewise, David said,
“Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble,
and let them get what they deserve.
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs be bent forever.”
Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this, for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them. For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
Notice how God is both kind and severe.
He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree. You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,
“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”
Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?
And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?
For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.”
~ Paul’s Letter to the Romans, all of CHAPTER 11
Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.
Why don’t you produce one single Scripture passage that contains the words “free will” are written. After you’ve done that, I’ll produce for you the numerous passages where the words “election”, “predestined”, “chosen”, “elect”, etc..... are written.
Christ said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” (John 6:44) Therefore, the ability to come to Christ is not in the natural man, because as it says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
Christ also said in John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Therefore, until man is born again (or born from above) he is not even able to see the kingdom of God, much less want to be in the kingdom of God.
Doubters in the sovereignty of God in salvation should spend time in Romans 9, where Paul addresses people who fight against the truth that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and He hardens whom He hardens.
Romans 9:16 “So then it depends NOT ON HUMAN WILL OR EXERTION, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 9:18 “ So then HE has mercy on whomever HE WILLS, and He hardens whomever He wills.”
To say that all men have the ability to exercise their free will and come to Christ, apart from the drawing of God, goes against the clear teaching of Scripture.
Romans 3:11-12 “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD. All have turned asisde; together they have become worthless; no on does good, not even one.”
Romans 10:20 “ Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I have shown myself to those who DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”
What a bunch of hooey. My father's salvation does not influence mine. The Jewish Nation consists of God's chosen people. Individuals within it that reject God will suffer the consequences of that rejection. Did the disciples who walked away from Christ when He instructed to eat His Body and drink His Blood get a pass in their particular judgement? Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.
In the case of Christians, we gotta let the Church speak. It is after all, the foundation and pillar of Truth, not Scripture, as evidenced by the Scriptural mangling millions of people engage in. As you have posted here.
And? Are you really the Paulian that debated me some time ago and withdrew when I posted to you that even Paul said that God desires all men to be saved. Therefore free will is there, since not all men are saved. Unless you have a weak God that is unable to work His Calvinistic magic.
Romans 10:20 “ Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I have shown myself to those who DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”
Exactly. God shows His Mercy to all and extends His Grace to all. Thank you for making my point for me.
Yes just a reminder, that particular passage of Scripture was penned by Saint Paul.
St. Paul was not Jesus. He was an exceptional man, chosen by God to follow Peter to the land of the Gentiles, but he was not and never can substitute for Jesus. He can help explain and guide, but the focus of Scripture has to be on the Words of Jesus, not the words of a bishop.
“but the focus of Scripture has to be on the Words of Jesus, not the words of a bishop.”
As you say:
“The people said, “Now we know you are possessed by a demon. Even Abraham and the prophets died, but you say, ‘Anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!’ Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say, ‘He is our God,’ but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But I do know him and obey him. Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”
The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!” At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
~ The Gospel of St. John 8:52-60
MERRY CHRISTMAS :)!
John is the only Gospel writer (even Paul doesn't) that expresses that Jesus is definitely God. Praise be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
MERRY CHRISTMAS :)!
May the light of God truly shine upon you and may He guide you on the Via of Christ through the narrow door.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.