Posted on 12/26/2009 6:09:29 AM PST by markomalley
Teacher asks you what 2+2 equals - you answer 4. Is that YOUR concept of teaching?
See how far it gets a prosecutor in court.
Quite far, it is the means of evaluating the evidence, to sway the jury. Happens all the time.
Collector, priests, same thing.
Research that shows no evidence of being researched. I appreciate it, its been loads of laughs.
That applies to you. You've not shown one shred of evidence that Jesus spent a majority of His time between 12 and 30 in Judaea.
Those are the source myths JoA coming to England is associated with. Those are some of your base "evidence" documents.
I've linked to nothing.
Who said he spent the time ONLY learning (oh that was you), he spent the rest of the time actually doing the work. Not a hard concept to grasp.
He worked so much He never had time for conversation? That's ridiculous.
Again, study the jewish life of the period, you've been given this answer already.
So conversations on spirituality were illegal before the age of 30?
You are the one pushing the theory, the burden is upon you :)
I've given you several verses to show Jesus was not in Judaea much. Show me one shred he was in Judaea majority of the time between 12 and 30.
The people would not be astonished at this. His answers astonished them. Are you saying those rabbis taught Him rather than the other way around?
Quite far, it is the means of evaluating the evidence, to sway the jury. Happens all the time.
Bull. You don't send a murderer to jail on Occam's razor.
No, significant difference, look up the words in greek or hebrew some day and you'll see
That applies to you. You've not shown one shred of evidence that Jesus spent a majority of His time between 12 and 30 in Judaea.
I haven't provided evidence that he spent the MAJORITY of his time in Judea because he spent ALL of his time there.
I've linked to nothing.
Finally, a word of truth. NO you claimed all your "evidence" is found with an alta vista search - wow, scholarship to the max. Ever hear of special pleading - JoA is a case in point.
He worked so much He never had time for conversation? That's ridiculous.
So conversations on spirituality were illegal before the age of 30?
Apparently only in the corners of your mind. Jesus' ministry began when he was about thirty - try to use a bible and see.
I've given you several verses to show Jesus was not in Judaea much. Show me one shred he was in Judaea majority of the time between 12 and 30.
Uh, excuse me, you've provided absolutely NO evidence to that effect. The only thing you did manage to cite and mangle was Jesus going to Caesarea AFTER Jesus was about 30.
Again, question and answer. His knowledge of scripture was advanced - as it should be, he was God the Son - DUH.
Bull. You don't send a murderer to jail on Occam's razor.
No, the jury uses it as a tool to decide based upon the evidence. DUH!
Prove it.
Finally, a word of truth. NO you claimed all your "evidence" is found with an alta vista search - wow, scholarship to the max. Ever hear of special pleading - JoA is a case in point.
Biblical evidence and logic is strong in itself.
Apparently only in the corners of your mind. Jesus' ministry began when he was about thirty - try to use a bible and see.
Jesus was teaching to the rabbis and the people at the temple at the age of 12.
Uh, excuse me, you've provided absolutely NO evidence to that effect.
Strangers tax, Nathanael, Joseph claiming the body as a relative, the history of the Phoenicians and Cyrus, the Talmud. You've got zero. Not one piece of evidence where you could logically say he spent his time from 12 to 30 in Judaea.
The only thing you did manage to cite and mangle was Jesus going to Caesarea AFTER Jesus was about 30.
And you can't admit Jesus was teaching to the people at the temple to the rabbis at 12.
So did He teach or not?
No, the jury uses it as a tool to decide based upon the evidence. DUH!
No they don't...they look at evidence. You don't prosecute on Occam's razor.
To summarize.
Going by the bible there is a lot of logic to apply to the verses that Jesus was related to Joseph of Arimathea being Mary’s young uncle as spoken of in the Jewish Talmud and that therefore His family had connections to wealth.
At the age of 12 Joseph the carpenter, Mary, and Jesus went to Jerusalem for Passover in Luke 2. In Judaea you had Jerusalem, Joseph of Arimathea’s town 8 miles north of Jerusalem, and then Jesus’ town Nazareth 82 miles north of Jerusalem. The verses say that after Passover Joseph and Mary travelled one day’s journey back toward Nazareth before realizing Jesus wasn’t with the extended family. If the meeting place for the extended family was Joseph of Arimathea’s estate, then that would be where the mix-up was realized. The time and distance is about right. Jesus was probably supposed to be with Zecharias, Elizabeth, and John (who was six months older than Jesus) and found a way to join Joseph of Arimathea who probably would be at the temple doing his Sanhedrin duties. While at the temple, Jesus took the opportunity to do His “Father’s business” teaching with questions and answers (a lot of His teaching in His ministry was with questions). The people hearing were astonished so his answers were not of the normal variety they were used to hearing from the rabbis. This proves that Jesus would have taught before the age of 30.
Joseph the carpenter would have died shortly after that and Joseph of Arimathea would have been made the guardian of the family.
Being a great businessman, the Romans kept Joseph in his business and made him Decurion of mines to keep the tin and copper flowing to make bronze. Some of the tin mines were in Cornwall of Britain, tin having been mined there for more than two thousand years and the Phoenicians passing the trade routes down to the Judaeans after having such a close relationship with Solomon a thousand years earlier. A lot of the miners would have been Jews, their ancestors brought in by the Phoenicians to run the mines.
When Joseph the carpenter died, it was an opportunity for Jesus to join His guardian Joseph of Arimathea on his business trips to the mines and prepare the Jews in the outposts for the ministry. Jesus would have helped in the work of the mines also and Joseph and Jesus would have supported Mary back home. This was done for 18 years. Britain was the only place not conquered by the Romans during this time and so that was the most fertile place for teaching.
When the time came for Jesus’ ministry, the people of Nazareth acted as if Jesus was not a carpenter. They ask in Matt 13 and Mark 6 “Is this not the “carpenter’s son”?” If Jesus had been a carpenter for 18 years having took over when his step-father died, they would have said “Is this not the “carpenter”?” In a small town everyone knows who the carpenter is if that man does carpentry for 18 years.
At the trial of Jesus, the chief priests have to accuse Jesus of treason against Rome to get him convicted. Most of the disciples have fled but John. Joseph is there and went “boldly” to Pilate to retrieve the body. This shows that Joseph was the kinsman. No doubt the chief priests wanted Jesus’ body dumped into a public buriel pit. But Joseph, having legal claim to the body, was able to keep the body from being dumped. Why was this a bold act? Because by proving he was part of Jesus’ family he was done being a Sanhedrin and done being Decurion of mines.
Before Jesus expired, he knew Joseph would be in deep trouble and so asked John to take care of His mother.
Legend has it Joseph and several others were set adrift from Judaea. Where would Joseph go?...he’d go to where the Romans weren’t, Britain, and where he and Jesus were well-loved by the miners and their aquaintances. Arriving in 37AD Joseph continued the publishing of the Word in Britain and because of this, Britain became the first land to accept Jesus as Messieh.
Readers will note – the Talmud is not the Bible. The verses say that after Passover Joseph and Mary travelled one day’s journey back toward Nazareth before realizing Jesus wasn’t with the extended family. If the meeting place for the extended family was Joseph of Arimathea’s estate, then that would be where the mix-up was realized.
Apart from the 1 days journey, the rest is speculation. It was far more common that families from the same town traveled to gether. 8 miles would hardly be considered a ‘days’ journey in a day where walking was the means of travel. The people hearing were astonished so his answers were not of the normal variety they were used to hearing from the rabbis. This proves that Jesus would have taught before the age of 30.
Customarily Jewish parents took their young sons with them for a year or two before the boy became a "son of the covenant" usually at age 13. Luke called Jesus a "boy" (Gr. pais, also used of servants) here rather than a "child" (Gr. paidion), the term he used of Jesus in verse 40. (Dr. Constable’s Bible Study Notes – Luke)
"Jewish boys became responsible for their actions at thirteen (m[ishnah]. Niddah 5.6; m[ishnah]. Megillah 4.6). At the age of twelve the instruction of boys became more intensive in preparation of the recognition of adulthood (m[ishnah]. 'Abot 5.21). The Bar Mitzvah of modern times, however, postdates the time of Jesus by five hundred years. . ." (Bock, Luke, p. 99, n. 1. Cf. Fitzmyer, p. 440.)
Then on the third day they began searching for Jesus and found Him in the temple sitting among the rabbis listening to their teaching and asking them questions. Luke's reference to His being in their "midst" suggests Jesus' centrality in this august group, though He was then a learner and not a teacher (cf. Ps. 119:99-100). (Constable, Luke)
In this context, it was Jesus in the position of learning, not teaching as clearly indicated from Luk 2:46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Joseph the carpenter would have died shortly after that and Joseph of Arimathea would have been made the guardian of the family.
Again, speculation based upon an unverified reference in the Talmud which will be refuted in scripture as we will see later.
Being a great businessman, the Romans kept Joseph in his business and made him Decurion of mines to keep the tin and copper flowing to make bronze.
Several flaws here. For starters the Bible indicates Joseph was on the Sanhedrin – the Jewish ruling council. For him to hold a Roman position would make him as a publican and an outcast. Secondly, the reference is speculation OUTSIDE of the bible (once again not proving from the bible, but having to source OUTSIDE). Next, the term “Decurion” doesn’t have anything to do with mines, but refers to : A military officer in the Roman infantry or cavalry OR A member of a Roman city or town council
Some of the tin mines were in Cornwall of Britain, tin having been mined there for more than two thousand years and the Phoenicians passing the trade routes down to the Judaeans after having such a close relationship with Solomon a thousand years earlier. A lot of the miners would have been Jews, their ancestors brought in by the Phoenicians to run the mines.
While there were tin mines in Britain, again, it is speculation that a lot of jews were brought in to run the mines. What is being ignorantly presented here is that the Phoenician language was a precursor to the Hebrew and any Hebrew-sounding names or words were that of Phoenicans, not Jews.
When Joseph the carpenter died, it was an opportunity for Jesus to join His guardian Joseph of Arimathea on his business trips to the mines and prepare the Jews in the outposts for the ministry. Jesus would have helped in the work of the mines also and Joseph and Jesus would have supported Mary back home. This was done for 18 years. Britain was the only place not conquered by the Romans during this time and so that was the most fertile place for teaching.
Blend of myth and legend here. This trip to England is based upon an 18th century mytheme that inspired William Blake's mystical hymn Jerusalem.
Anglo-Israeli’s like to think that they are descendants of the Babylonian diaspora. In none of the earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned. The first connection of Joseph of Arimathea with Britain is found in the 9th century Life of Mary Magdalene by Rabanus Maurus (AD 766-856). The accretion of legends round Joseph of Arimathea in Britain, encapsulated by the poem hymn of William Blake And did those feet in ancient time held as "an almost secret yet passionately held article of faith among certain otherwise quite orthodox Christians", was critically examined by A. W. Smith in 1989. In its most developed version, Joseph, a tin merchant, visited Cornwall, accompanied by his nephew, the boy Jesus. And out these legends grew another, connecting Joseph of Arimathæa with the legend of the Holy Grail.
Once again, we see the reliance upon non-biblical and acknowledged myths for this portion of the story, which is essentially an argument out of silence in the Bible.
When the time came for Jesus’ ministry, the people of Nazareth acted as if Jesus was not a carpenter. They ask in Matt 13 and Mark 6 “Is this not the “carpenter’s son”?” If Jesus had been a carpenter for 18 years having took over when his step-father died, they would have said “Is this not the “carpenter”?” In a small town everyone knows who the carpenter is if that man does carpentry for 18 years.
Actually, if the bible was actually USED in this instance one would read in Mark, one would read:
Mr 6:3* Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Remarkably, the bible here refutes his argument ( they would have said “Is this not the “carpenter”?).
What is striking here is who is MISSING from the list of Jesus’ family members – you guessed it Joseph of Arimathea. Were they under his household, why wasn’t he included, the rich tin merchant? Simply because ‘ol uncle Joe wasn’t his uncle. One other point of context, Jesus prior to this Jesus had just taught several powerful parables – “the soils”, “the weeds”, “the mustard seed”, “hidden yeast “ – with explanations. Then some directed to his disciples – “hidden treasure”, “the pearl”, the dragnet”, and the “homeowner” – with explanations.
Mt 13:54 The local synagogue attendees wondered where Jesus obtained His authority. The wisdom in His teaching and the power in His miracles demonstrated remarkable authority, but where did He get it? After all, he was known as a carpenter, the son of a carpenter. By referring to Joseph as "the carpenter" and to Jesus as his son, they were implying that Jesus should have followed in His father's footsteps. The definite article before "carpenter" suggests that there may have been only one carpenter in Nazareth.
"(Incidentally, their questions render impossible the fanciful miracles ascribed to Jesus' childhood by the apocryphal gospels.)" (Carson, "Matthew," p. 336.)
At the trial of Jesus, the chief priests have to accuse Jesus of treason against Rome to get him convicted. Most of the disciples have fled but John. Joseph is there and went “boldly” to Pilate to retrieve the body. This shows that Joseph was the kinsman. No doubt the chief priests wanted Jesus’ body dumped into a public buriel pit. But Joseph, having legal claim to the body, was able to keep the body from being dumped. Why was this a bold act? Because by proving he was part of Jesus’ family he was done being a Sanhedrin and done being Decurion of mines.
I think the readers on this point can see a great deal of conflict., the Sanhedrin/decuion/publican for starters. Customarily, the bodies of crucified criminals were left on their crosses to rot or be eaten by wild animals. Romans were known to grant the corpses of executed men to friends or relatives for proper burial, as it was a Roman execution, Roman rules applied – not Jewish. Joseph went boldly because, unlike the disciples, he didn’t fear for his life as they did.
Before Jesus expired, he knew Joseph would be in deep trouble and so asked John to take care of His mother.
Wrong – John was a known disciple, Joseph was a ‘secret’ follower. IF Joseph was the nearest kin, it was unnecessary for Jesus to commend her to another, since allegedly this was done at the time of Mary’s husband’s death.
Legend has it Joseph and several others were set adrift from Judaea. Where would Joseph go?...he’d go to where the Romans weren’t, Britain, and where he and Jesus were well-loved by the miners and their aquaintances. Arriving in 37AD Joseph continued the publishing of the Word in Britain and because of this, Britain became the first land to accept Jesus as Messieh.
Hello anybody reading this – please note the very first word – LEGEND. As noted above, JoA is associated myths do not show up until the middle ages and become more diverse and fairy tale with time. How could Joseph “Publish the Word” when at AD37, the first gospels were not even put to pen, nor most of the NT by Paul. He had no Word to publish. Kinda a large train wreck in logic.
In summary then:
To concoct this story, it is not the Bible that is relied upon – in fact it has shown to refute key components – but extrabiblical sources of dubious credibility. The facts are
1. In none of these earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned.
2. When Joseph is mentioned, it isn’t until the middle ages (9th century), and then it appears in legends where he is associated with the Holy Grail and even being the father of King Arthur.
3. If Joseph was Jesus’ uncle, there would be no need for him to come secretly in the night, especially if he raised Jesus from a child.
4. No reference linking Joseph as Jesus’ uncle are present anywhere in the bible. In scripture passages that list Jesus’ family, JoA is clearly missing.
5. Jesus was recognized by the people of Nazareth as the ‘carpenter’ as well as the ‘son of the carpenter’, with the craft being handed down from father to son.
6. Most of the legend is based upon arguments from silence in the biblical record. However, it has been shown that the EXTRA biblical materials used to allegedly fill the gap are themselves over 800 years separated from the event and acknowledged by scholars as fictional.
So, far from PROVING this story from the Bible, it proves that legends and myths drive the drivel. It wasn’t going by the bible – it was going right by the bible and leaving it in the dust, subordinated by myths.
You forgot the sarcasm tag.
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