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Can a Person Be Saved Without Jesus?
House of Yeshua ^ | September 2009 | Jon Thompson

Posted on 01/16/2010 8:23:23 AM PST by Colofornian

This week's Bible study dealt with a question some Christian folks asked before the start of our meeting: “Can someone who has the Torah and lives obediently to it be saved if they don't accept Jesus as Savior?”

We approached this in three steps:

•What is meant by Torah observant?

•What is the difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”?

•What is meant by being saved as related to Messiah?

First, we discussed that being Torah observant means to obey the written word of Elohim, not the traditions of men that have come in and taken a place alongside His Word. To be Torah observant means to obey the commandments, judgments, statutes and instructions of Elohim as He gave them to Moshe (Moses) and subsequently recorded in the Torah.

Next we discussed if Yeshua taught that the Torah should be observed or obeyed? In Matthew 5:17 Yeshua said during His Sermon on the Mount:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets [Nevi'im]; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

When someone teaches that “Jesus” did away with—destroyed—the Torah, they are saying in effect that He lied; when He actually said that He did not come to do away with the Torah. He said He came to fill up the Torah and Prophets with meaning and to interpret them correctly. The terms fulfill and destroy are rabbinical terms that mean to explain correctly or incorrectly respectively.

We see Yeshua filling up the meaning of the Written Word when He says in Matthew 5:21,22:

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment. But I say to you...”

Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2:

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’”

Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet:

“You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)

So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes “Jesus” as saying:

“...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised...” (Luke 7:22b)

and at the same time says that “Jesus” did away with the Old Testament commandments—this is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. “Jesus”, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.

Second, is there a difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”? Do the two names identify the same person? “Jesus” (Ιησους) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name “Yeshua” (ישוע). In this sense, it is the name in a non-native language for the same Person. But when it is contrasted that Yeshua of the New Testament kept the Torah, instructed His followers to keep the Torah, taught the Torah, and did all the signs and wonders—that's different.

The problem arises when the names “Jesus” and “Yeshua” are used interchangeably. On one hand, the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.

The third question is about the Messiah. Again, the name of “Jesus” is tied to the “Christian Christ.” Many Torah followers make a distinction between the “Christian Christ” and the “Jewish Messiah.” The “Jewish Messiah” is a central figure in biblical thought. Many of the figures in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) looked forward to and had faith in the coming Messiah. The binding of Isaac is a prime shadow of the Messiah. Abraham looked forward to the Messiah:

“God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” [See all of Genesis 22:8–14]

“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son...that Elohim was able to raise him from the dead...” (Hebrews 11:17 [OT Genesis 22:12])

“And the Scripture, foreseeing that Elohim would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 [OT Genesis 12:3])

“And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of Elohim.” (James 2:23 [OT Genesis 15:6])

As did Jacob:

“So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30)

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.” (Genesis 49:10)

Job:

“For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;” (Job 19:25)

David:

“Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6,7)

Ezekiel:

“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

Daniel:

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:25,26)

Jeremiah:

“Their Redeemer is strong; YHVH of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 50:34)

Isaiah:

“Our Redeemer; YHVH of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 47:4)

In the modern church the “Christ” often taught under the name of “Jesus” is not the “Jewish Messiah” of the Scriptures. The “Christian Christ”— “Jesus”—changed the unchangeable commandments, statutes and judgments of Elohim. He also violated the Torah, according to many teachers. If “Jesus” violated the Torah, then He sinned. If He sinned, He was not sinless. If He wasn't sinless, He was not a Perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

The real Messiah of the Scriptures—the “Jewish Messiah”—did not sin. He kept the Torah to the letter, He taught the Torah, and He was born, grew up, lived, died, and was raised again—a Torah-observant Jew.

So can a person be saved without “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ?” The answer we came up with in our study is—“yes”—if the question relates to the “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ” usually preached in the modern church.

But, can a person be saved without the “Jewish Messiah“—the Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!

With this knowledge, according to the prophet Ezekiel, he points out in Ezekiel 18 that each person needs to set his life on-course based on what the Torah says. Excerpts from verses of this chapter state:

“But if a man be just, and does what is lawful and right...If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!...the soul who sins shall die...” Ezekiel 18:5,9,20.

Ezekiel continues in verse 20 that if the wicked person who repents—turns from his sin to righteousness—will live. But in verse 24 if the righteous person who turns from righteousness to wickedness—will die. The Hebrew word for righteous is tzadik (צדיק) meaning “straight,” as in the narrow way. And the word for wicked is rasha (רשע) meaning “off the path,” as in wide is the way that leads to destruction.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13,14)

In both Ezekiel and Matthew the life spoken of is more than physical existence. They are discussing Eternal Life, salvation. The gate by which we gain entrance to the path of salvation is the atonement of our Sacrifice Yeshua. The path of salvation is obedience to the commandments, judgments and statutes of Elohim.

It is up to each of us to choose our path in life, the way of the world or the way of Elohim. If you choose to follow the Elohim of the Bible—which “Messiah” will you follow—the fabled Torah-denying Christ of the modern church who, according to Moshe and the Torah, was a false prophet and leads to eternal death and separation from YHVH our Elohim. Or, the Torah-observant Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah)—the true “Jewish Messiah” prophesied in the Old Testament and Whose earthly life is recorded in the New Testament—and Who provides eternal life as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins—the only path for salvation.

“Yeshua said to him, ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’“ (John 14:6)


TOPICS: Judaism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: jesus; salvation; torah; yeshua
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From the article: ...can a person be saved without the “Jewish Messiah“—the Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!

From the article: Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2: "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’” Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet: “You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)

1 posted on 01/16/2010 8:23:26 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Per your invitation. (I have it on good authority Yeshua’s track record of loving Jews is quite good!)


2 posted on 01/16/2010 8:25:32 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian

No.


3 posted on 01/16/2010 8:28:20 AM PST by JustaDumbBlonde
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To: Colofornian

If man could be saved by law keeping Jesus came in vain


4 posted on 01/16/2010 8:34:13 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: Colofornian

Silliness. God can can choose to save anyone he pleases to. HE isn’t restricted by anything. Even the pope mentioned this aspect.


5 posted on 01/16/2010 8:39:09 AM PST by StolarStorm
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To: Colofornian

Silliness. God can choose to save anyone he pleases to. HE isn’t restricted by anything. Even the pope mentioned this aspect.


6 posted on 01/16/2010 8:39:16 AM PST by StolarStorm
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To: Colofornian
All are called to salvation and a plan for salvation exists for all. Only through the principle of Invincible Ignorance can one achieve salvation without Jesus. They are those who have not heard and rejected the Gospel and have lived good lives within the the natural law.
7 posted on 01/16/2010 8:40:49 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Colofornian
The whole point of the Torah is that the ones who believe are reckoned as righteous. The Torah itself points to a "prophet like Moses" that Israel is to shema ie, hear or hearken to.
8 posted on 01/16/2010 8:43:29 AM PST by Guyin4Os (My name says Guyin40s but now I have an exotic, daring, new nickname..... Guyin50s)
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To: Colofornian

No.


9 posted on 01/16/2010 8:48:54 AM PST by svcw (The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves. GW)
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To: StolarStorm

Amen... I think the question is completely arrogant on it’s face. I would go so far as to say you are being disobedient to God for being so arrogant as to believe you can come up with the answer.

God can do whatever He wants to do...


10 posted on 01/16/2010 8:53:43 AM PST by Hootch (Another perspective)
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To: Colofornian
Another single issue post huh?

You should have added car care tips or cooking advice...

11 posted on 01/16/2010 8:55:21 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Colofornian
Another single issue post huh?

You should have added car care tips or cooking advice...

12 posted on 01/16/2010 8:55:34 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: JustaDumbBlonde

So Jews go to hell, according to you?


13 posted on 01/16/2010 8:55:50 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Colofornian
By the way, your article doesn't even attempt to answer the question of whether Jews who don't believe in Jesus can be saved. Instead it discusses which "version" of Jesus Christians should believe in.

What about the original question. What about those Jews who beleive in neither the Jesus or Yeshua described. The article is silent on this.

14 posted on 01/16/2010 8:58:15 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Natural Law; Invincibly Ignorant
Only through the principle of Invincible Ignorance can one achieve salvation without Jesus [Poster Natural Law]

II, do you agree with this?

15 posted on 01/16/2010 8:59:06 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: svcw

Pretty good answer ... I’ll just reinforce it. Absolutely NOT.


16 posted on 01/16/2010 8:59:55 AM PST by HiramQuick (work harder ... welfare recipients depend on you!)
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To: ejonesie22

LOL


17 posted on 01/16/2010 9:00:39 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian
No one, Jew or Gentile can be saved apart from faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. No one.

Apart from Jesus, no one has ever kept the entire law because it is impossible to do so (Empahsis mine):

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in ONE POINT, he has become guilty of ALL." (James 2:10)

Jesus said to the Jews (and to all of mankind by application):

"Therefore I said to you that YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS; for UNLESS YOU BELIEVE that I AM He (i.e. the Messiah), YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS." (John 8:24) "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, no one comes unto the Father but THROUGH ME" (John 14:6) "And there is SALVATION in NO ONE ELSE; for there is no NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we MUST be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

Everyone, Jew and Gentile alike MUST come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone in order to be saved from their sins. Without Him there is NO SALVATION, no matter how "good" some men believe they are, no matter how much they try to keep the Law, no matter what their physical relationship to Abraham is.

18 posted on 01/16/2010 9:01:01 AM PST by Jmouse007 (God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver us from evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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To: Colofornian
“So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes “Jesus” as saying:

“...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised...” (Luke 7:22b)

and at the same time says that “Jesus” did away with the Old Testament commandments—this is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. “Jesus”, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.”

This sounds like nitpicking at a strawman. Who are these unidentified persons that say Jesus did away with the Law?
And why the concern over whether one uses the familiar though incorrect form “Jesus” or the less familiar but also incorrect “Yeshua”?

19 posted on 01/16/2010 9:03:45 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Jack Black
So Jews go to hell, according to you?

John 14:6 (King James Version)

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

20 posted on 01/16/2010 9:04:02 AM PST by humblegunner
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To: Natural Law
and a plan for salvation exists for all

Can you expound on this. What is the "plan?"

21 posted on 01/16/2010 9:06:12 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: Colofornian

The truth that God saved people before the birth of Christ leads the conversation do dispensationalism, but I don’t have a problem with that.

As I recall, John 3:16 makes a promise that requires on-going belief.

Romans 10:9 states a one time action that has continuing results, and also mentions the resurrection.

But the bottom line is that all salvation requires either the belief in the coming Christ or the resurrection of Christ which makes Christ the focal point of all salvation.


22 posted on 01/16/2010 9:06:58 AM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Jack Black

Where the Jews go is not according to me. I am a mere mortal that only knows what I’ve been taught in church, and my pastor preaches the Word directly from the Bible.


23 posted on 01/16/2010 9:18:12 AM PST by JustaDumbBlonde
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To: Hootch

Though it is true that God can do what ever he chooses to do, He has given us a rule book to go by. I doubt that he would do something the opposite of what he laid out in His own book. The God I believe in isn’t a “do as I say, not as I do” God.


24 posted on 01/16/2010 9:22:00 AM PST by fish hawk (It's sad that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. Isaac Asimov)
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To: Colofornian
  1. Abraham “believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” as it is written in Genesis 15:6.
  2. Abraham believed “in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” as it is written in Romans 4:5.
  3. Abraham did know Christ and looked forward to His coming. “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” as Jesus said in John 8:56-58.

Selah!

25 posted on 01/16/2010 9:22:45 AM PST by delacoert
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To: ejonesie22

Cooking advice? How bout a recipe for eternal life.


26 posted on 01/16/2010 9:23:27 AM PST by fish hawk (It's sad that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. Isaac Asimov)
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To: Colofornian

There is one mediator between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ.


27 posted on 01/16/2010 9:28:10 AM PST by pallis
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To: Colofornian

For Christians, Jesus is the way.

Do know about other beliefs.


28 posted on 01/16/2010 9:29:22 AM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: StolarStorm

That is not entirely true. Once God has limited Himself to work through a particular order or means, he is bound to it. There is no salvation outside of Christ Jesus. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone. The ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament were never directed toward Gentiles, and these were shadows that have been perfectly fulfilled in Jesus. The moral law is the only law that still remains for Christians.


29 posted on 01/16/2010 9:30:18 AM PST by Nosterrex
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To: StolarStorm; Hootch
God CAN restrict Himself - and he has.

God is by nature TRUTH.

Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth", Jesus Answered," Before Abraham was born, I Am"

Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."

Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior."

Matthew 1:20-25
... behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying "Joseph, son of David, do not be afrraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel", which is translated God with us."

If he is not God, then he is a liar and not deserving the adulation you will see in Christians' actions and lives.

If He IS God, then He told us the ONLY way to salvation is through HIM (Jesus).

Praise God. Lord thank you for your path to salvation!

30 posted on 01/16/2010 9:30:26 AM PST by plsjr (<>< ... http://NewSpring.cc/webservice - check it out!)
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To: Colofornian

Saved from what?


31 posted on 01/16/2010 9:30:59 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Colofornian

The righteousness of Jesus Christ was credited to Abraham, David and all who believed in His coming in the Old Testament.


32 posted on 01/16/2010 9:39:43 AM PST by delacoert
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To: RnMomof7; Natural Law

Many have contended across the last 60+ years that there are parallel paths to salvation, one requiring being saved by Christ, and the other one just requiring the old testament with no need of Christ.

Yet, Galatians identifies the second path as a false one no Christian can endorse, saying,”I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.”

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ died in vain.”

There is in fact only one path to salvation, and that is with Christ.


33 posted on 01/16/2010 9:42:54 AM PST by Dr. North
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To: Dr. North

Amen !..post modernism rules much of what calls itself Christianity today !


34 posted on 01/16/2010 9:46:21 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: count-your-change
Who are these unidentified persons that say Jesus did away with the Law?

Walk into any evangelical seminary and ask. You will hear it loud and clear.

And why the concern over whether one uses the familiar though incorrect form “Jesus” or the less familiar but also incorrect “Yeshua”?

LOL. "...also incorrect "Yeshua" - please... by all means enlighten us.
35 posted on 01/16/2010 9:47:30 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Colofornian

Who is “Jesus”? /sarc


36 posted on 01/16/2010 9:48:13 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: fish hawk
Already have that.

It's simple to.

Accept Jesus Christ (the real one) and mix with love, joy and peace.

Cook for a life time.

37 posted on 01/16/2010 9:51:44 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: RnMomof7
It is called the “Oprahization” of American Christianity.

All paths are valid, all paths are equal.

Of course it never address the final logical issuer, if all paths are valid and equal why have any at all?

Christ is the way, this is his created world and ALL people of every nation, creed and race are his.

If one elects to not acknowledge such, it still does not change the reality they live in nor their future.

38 posted on 01/16/2010 9:57:16 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Colofornian
Shabbat Shalom !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

39 posted on 01/16/2010 9:57:28 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Colofornian

Which part of “Our Father...” is not Jewish?


40 posted on 01/16/2010 10:18:37 AM PST by onedoug
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To: StolarStorm

Yes, God is limited by His Word.

When He makes a Covenant by His Word, He is bound to keep it.


41 posted on 01/16/2010 10:20:38 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Hank Kerchief

Everlasting condemnation in the Lake of Fire.


42 posted on 01/16/2010 10:23:09 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Jack Black

There are plenty of Hebrews who were not saved. There were even priests who were not believers. There will remain, though, a remnant of Jews who are believers through faith in Christ, even after the Holy Spirit is removed from the Church Age.


43 posted on 01/16/2010 10:25:30 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Hank Kerchief
Saved from what?

A place of everlasting torment that makes this place look like heaven: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24441270/The-Darvaza-Well

44 posted on 01/16/2010 10:34:12 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: onedoug; Colofornian
Which part of “Our Father...” is not Jewish?

None; this is from the Shem Tov Matthew:
Our father in heaven
may your name be sanctified
may your kingdom be blessed
your will shall be done in heaven and on earth
give us our bread continually
forgive us the debt of our sins
as we forgive the debt of those who sin against us
do not bring us into the hands of a test
and protect us from all evil
amen
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
45 posted on 01/16/2010 10:49:58 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Hank Kerchief
Saved from what?

Good Q: From sin; From a second death; From the fear of death; From bondage to Satan.

46 posted on 01/16/2010 11:30:36 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: fish hawk

We can teach what we believe but I believe in a Merciful God. The premise is that if you don’t accept Jesus as your Savior that you will not be saved. Does that mean that all the people prior to Jesus will not be saved by God? Does that mean people in remote tribes that have never heard of Jesus will not be saved? I don’t know but that isn’t my decision... That is God’s decision.


47 posted on 01/16/2010 11:41:49 AM PST by Hootch (Another perspective)
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To: count-your-change; Invincibly Ignorant
This sounds like nitpicking at a strawman. Who are these unidentified persons that say Jesus did away with the Law? And why the concern over whether one uses the familiar though incorrect form “Jesus” or the less familiar but also incorrect “Yeshua”?

You've got a sharp eye.

It's because of what the author says earlier in the article: Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2: “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’” Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet: “You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)

You see to the Jew who has heard Christians as saying the Law has been annulled, and that this "Christianized" version of this Jesus is responsible for this, well then they immediately apply that to mean that Jesus could only be a false prophet -- for a true signs and wonder-worker would advise people to also "keep His commandments and obey His voice" as it says in Deut. 13.

Therefore, some Messianic Jews think that these Law-annulling Christians believe in a cultural Christ -- thus the author says: the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.

Thus, that is NOT a characteristic of the Jewish Messiah. Bottom line is, they are wanting to remain true to the word of God (Deut. 13).

And we all know that cultures throughout time and throughout the world have tended to redefine aspects of Jesus -- some so much so that He's no longer recognizable (even the Corinthian church did this to such a radical extent that the apostle Paul referenced how they had departed from their devotion to the true Jesus to another Jesus -- see 2 Cor. 11:3-4).

Messianic Jews are simply attempting to retain defining Him through the filter of the Old Testament expectation of the Messiah.

48 posted on 01/16/2010 11:49:26 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Hootch
If you really get into the Bible you would find out that God will hold no one in contempt if they never heard of him or the primitive man or imbeciles etc. that don't have a functioning brain. The ones to worry are perfectly normal people that hear his message and choose to think if folly and deny Him. You may not find one or two verses actually saying this but if you absorb Bible Doctrine your common sense would show you this. Don't be offended, when I say “you” I don't mean you personally but you in general.
49 posted on 01/16/2010 12:03:06 PM PST by fish hawk (It's sad that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. Isaac Asimov)
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To: Tzfat
I have no occasion to walk into an evangelical seminary but if you have and have heard this loud and clear, then so be it. I simply haven't heard such from anyone and I do discuss religious topics with a number of different people.

Why should the name Yeshua be preferred over Jesus since a contrast was drawn between the the two as though two different individual are being spoken of?

If you feel Yeshua is a more correct form for person name of the Messiah, it's up to you to explain why. Clearly the exact pronunciation of names from the Scriptures is not known.

50 posted on 01/16/2010 12:03:45 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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