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Bishop Williamson says Vatican-SSPX talks “dialogue of the deaf”
Reuters ^ | January 19, 2010

Posted on 01/20/2010 10:16:09 AM PST by NYer

Bishop Richard Williamson, the ultra-traditionalist prelate whose denial of the extent of the Holocaust created an uproar in the Catholic Church and with Jews early last year, has said the discussions at the Vatican to rehabilitate his Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) are a “dialogue of the deaf.” Williamson, one of the four SSPX bishops whose bans of excommunication were lifted by Pope Benedict only days after his controversial views were aired on Swedish television, said the two sides had “absolutely irreconcilable” positions.

In a 15-minute interview posted on the French video-sharing website Dailymotion, Williamson discussed a number of issues with a man identified by the Paris Catholic daily La Croix as a minor French far-right politician named Pierre Panet. When asked about the negotiation under way at the Vatican to reintegrate the once-shunned SSPX into the Roman church, he said in fluent French:

“I think that will end up as a dialogue of the deaf. The two positions are absolutely irreconcilable. 2+2=4 and 2+2=5 are irreconcilable. Either those who say 2+2=4 renounce the truth and agree that 2+2=5 — that is, the SSPX abandons the truth, which God forbids us to do — or those who say 2+2=5 convert and return to the truth. Or the two meet halfway and say that 2+2=4-1/2. That’s wrong. Either the SSPX becomes a traitor or Rome converts or it’s a dialogue of the deaf.”

Williamson’s negationist views of the Holocaust caused such an uproar early last year that the head of the SSPX, Bishop Bernard Fellay, issued a gag order for him. It was so embarrassing for Benedict that he had to issue a letter to Catholic bishops around the world explaining his decision.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: catholic; pope; schism; sspx; vatican; williamson

Bishop Williamson, 28 Feb 2007
1 posted on 01/20/2010 10:16:09 AM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 01/20/2010 10:17:35 AM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***the ultra-traditionalist prelate whose denial of the extent of the Holocaust created an uproar in the Catholic Church***

He a fan of Pius?


3 posted on 01/20/2010 10:20:05 AM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: NYer
The members and followers of SSPX who are still Catholic, will regularize their situation with the Church.

The members and followers of SSPX who have ceased to be Catholic will head off into the weeds ...

4 posted on 01/20/2010 10:20:54 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: NYer

He will separate the wheat from the chaff.


5 posted on 01/20/2010 10:27:44 AM PST by TradicalRC (Secular conservatism is liberalism.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

It is all about pride, it is all about I’m so holy I do it right while every other Catholic does it wrong.

My SSPX friend doesn’t have a clue, her life is in shambles, her children have left the SSPX church, her husband barely speaks to her, her mother only does because she is her daughter, I speak to her because I love her...all because she is in love with religion but not necesarily God. She is in love with the trappings, with the thought that she is doing it right, like somehow saying things in Latin is magic.

If my family didn’t like me and my life was as messed up as her’s, the first thing I’d do is inventory myself. If my attitude towards religion was pushing everyone I knew further from God, I’d wonder what kind of religion I was peddling. She has no joy, just rules and regulations. She doesn’t revel in the gifts that God has given us and continues to give but only in her misery.

Okay, rant off.


6 posted on 01/20/2010 10:32:03 AM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: NYer

Wow! I never realized how fluently he speaks French! Brilliant guy.


7 posted on 01/20/2010 10:32:56 AM PST by Ozone34 ("There are only two philosophies: Thomism and bullshitism!" -Leon Bloy)
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To: Gamecock

Pius XII, you mean? The man who was praised and honored by Jews all over the world when he died in 1958? The Pope whose record of saving Jews and undermining Hitler was well known to everyone—until the Commies unleashed vile, libelous charges against him in the 1960s? That Pius?


8 posted on 01/20/2010 10:36:07 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: tiki

Yes, you do get a few of those. I’ve also seen folks with the same perverse dedication to liturgical and theological modernism.


9 posted on 01/20/2010 10:36:12 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Arthur McGowan

Some folks appear to me to be uninterested in the truth.


10 posted on 01/20/2010 10:37:46 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: NYer

AFAIK, all four of the illictly-consecrated SSPX bishops are loons. But Williamson is the looniest by far.

Maureen Dowd deserves special dishonorable mention, for implying that Benedict lifted Williamson’s excommunication BECAUSE Williamson denied the Holocaust.


11 posted on 01/20/2010 10:38:27 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: Arthur McGowan

I get the strong feeling from Williamson that he doesn’t want reconciliation with Rome, period. He’s basically as anti-Papal as any ardent Protestant.


12 posted on 01/20/2010 10:46:48 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: tiki
If my family didn’t like me and my life was as messed up as her’s, the first thing I’d do is inventory myself. If my attitude towards religion was pushing everyone I knew further from God, I’d wonder what kind of religion I was peddling. She has no joy, just rules and regulations. She doesn’t revel in the gifts that God has given us and continues to give but only in her misery.

You make an excellent and very astute statement. How tragic that this woman has been taken in by this group.

13 posted on 01/20/2010 11:02:17 AM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

The Pope shouldn’t give these crackpots the time of day. Continuing to attempt to “dialogue” with them just gives them credibility they don’t deserve. Since they’re so sure the Pope is wrong about everything, they’re obviously not Roman Catholics and don’t want to be.


14 posted on 01/20/2010 11:13:32 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: tiki

And look at Mel Gibson. He’s quite the poster child for what this cult can do to someone’s life.


15 posted on 01/20/2010 11:25:01 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: NYer

Sounds like this guy is trying hard to sabotage reconciliation of SSPX with the Catholic Church and the Pope. He certainly doesn’t seem so big on Vatican I’s teaching on the role of the Pope as supreme governor of the Church.


16 posted on 01/20/2010 11:29:02 AM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: NYer
the ultra-traditionalist prelate whose denial of the extent of the Holocaust...

How does that make him an ultra-traditionalist? If anything, he's a whack job. The Pope needs to excommunicate him again.

17 posted on 01/20/2010 11:31:06 AM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Be strip-searched by scanners. Buy ObamaCare or go to jail. What's not Totalitarian about that?)
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To: NYer
Either the SSPX becomes a traitor or Rome converts.....

There it is, folks. The problem in a nutshell and confirmation that there will be no reconciliation of all four SSPX bishops and their followers.

That's about as clear a statement as one can make that SSPX is the true guardian of Catholicism and that the rest of the Church must "convert". Williamson equates the reintegration of the SSPX with treachery. Calling the talks a "dialogue of the deaf" is essentially the same as saying they are a waste of time. One can therefore conclude that the talks have gone ahead without his approval.

Williamsom was exiled from Minnesota to Argentina and was subsequently yanked from the seminary there to an indefinite sabbatical in London. I think it's fair to say that SSPX really don't know what to do with him. I have no doubt that there are saner minds within SSPX and hopefully these will help to steer the group towards reconciliation with the Pope but I'll bet my next pay check that Williamson will never be a part of such a reconciliation.

18 posted on 01/20/2010 11:42:56 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: NYer

Talk about deaf. The man is deaf, dumb, blind and ignorant. Having dealt with him personally, I can tell you you honestly that it is all about him!


19 posted on 01/20/2010 11:53:07 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: NTHockey

Grrr. If he really were deaf he wouldn’t be saying those things.


20 posted on 01/20/2010 1:08:28 PM PST by BenKenobi (;)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
He’s quite the poster child for what this cult can do to someone’s life.

Mel's not SSPX (he has/had his own thing going), and SSPX, for all their faults, would not ever endorse someone committing adultery. Or getting drunk, for that matter.

21 posted on 01/20/2010 1:18:50 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: NYer
early last year that the head of the SSPX, Bishop Bernard Fellay, issued a gag order for him [Williamson]

What happened to the gag order?

22 posted on 01/20/2010 1:28:24 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: marshmallow
there will be no reconciliation of all four SSPX bishops

It is Willianson's position, about 2+2=4, but there is no indication that it is Fellay or even the majority of the SSPX's position. Williamson himself says that the negotiations are ongoing. Given his druthers, perhaps it's a sign that the negotiations are going well.

24 posted on 01/20/2010 9:51:07 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The members and followers of SSPX who are still Catholic, will regularize their situation with the Church. The members and followers of SSPX who have ceased to be Catholic will head off into the weeds ...

I think this is an accurate assessment.

25 posted on 01/21/2010 2:42:26 PM PST by sojourner
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To: Campion
I get the strong feeling from Williamson that he doesn’t want reconciliation with Rome, period. He’s basically as anti-Papal as any ardent Protestant.

Nope, not anti-papal but antisemitic! Williamson is the epitome of and at the crux of what we protestants take issue with the "mother" Church of Western Christianity under its current "pope". Here is an apostate disciple of fraudulent dogma, duly excommunicated by a holy RC Father (JPII) many of us consider a saint, who is welcomed back with open, forgiving arms by Ratzinger without having to go through any confessional act of accountability for obvious sinful disobedience; all the while, he (Williamson), displaying impenitent hubris .

26 posted on 01/22/2010 5:54:36 AM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: Pius
Name me one bishop in the USA the does not allow sex education in his diocese, that does not have a 75% annulment approval percentage, that has a seminary full of manly priests? ...

Archbishop Timothy Broglio (but I don't believe he'd or anyone else would know about the contraceptive users among his flock.)

27 posted on 01/22/2010 6:01:26 AM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: Pius
RE: What does anti-semitic mean to you? What has he said that is anti-semitic?

Are you actually of the belief that one can deny the holocaust, question the legitimacy of Israel and NOT be antisemetic?

RE: "we Protestants” is an oxymoron, since each Protestant is his own church of one, his own pope and king. Anything a Protestant believes, can be refuted using another Protestant. You are on your own, flying solo.

Nope...some of us (Episcopalians, Anglicans) have bishops just like you do...and the diocese owns the church!

There is no such thing as the Church of Western Christianity, it is an insult all the Eastern Rite Catholics. The Catholic Church is universal, all over the world.

You mean the C catholic church is universal...not the Catholic Church. BTW, ever here of the Great Schism?

RE; Here is an apostate disciple of fraudulent dogma, You don't have a clue what an apostate is. You don't know anything about the case of the 4 SSPX bishops.

Okay, genius, whatever the Society of St. Pius X bishops are, they aren't exactly faithful to the vow of obedience they took.

As a Catholic I don't care how ALL of the non-Catholic religions run their show. You are not a Catholic, why should you care about our internal matters? Might it be that the truth is that you care because deep down you know that the Catholic Church is the true religion, and a firebrand on your conscience?

A "true Christian" religion is one that embraces the divinity and hope of salvation from a forgiving Heavenly Father for sinful deeds by the presence of the risen Jesus Christ who paid the debt for those sins some 2,000 years ago. Through Christ's first human vicar (St. Peter) the catholic church was founded, hence "Mother Church"...and for that we protestants thank you--well, not you (especially being the chauvinistically protestant basher you are) but the historic roots of the church.

30 posted on 01/22/2010 12:00:46 PM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: Pius
Thanks for the up and up on Archbishop Timothy Broglio, I never heard of him. I hope you are right, however, since he is a military chaplain, he would not have any duties with the education of children in Catholic schools and so, we don’t know whether he’d force sex education, in line with all the USA Bishops. Secondly, do you know his annulment approval percentage? It’s like 90% in the USA. Thirdly, does he even have charge of a seminary? Please NOTICE that not one person has responded other than you. The reason is because there is no such bishop that I know off when I studdied this in the late 1990’s. There was only one Eastern Rite Catholic Bishop back then.

You should look him up--as well as his predecessor Archbishop Edwing O'Brien (now Archbishop of Baltimore). I've met both of them at confirmation services of military children. Their sermons were inspiring and uplifting for all Christians...incidentally, they have/had the largest diocese in the world (all the military bases, plus embassies) and they have done chaplain duties with Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen and Guardsmen--meaning they've seen combat up front and personal, slept in muddy foxholes eating cold MREs, been subjected to hostile fire, and given last rites to the young and dying of sniper wounds or torn in two by IEDs; not the typical elderly suffering after a lifetime of smoking the average priest sees in a hospice.

31 posted on 01/22/2010 12:16:39 PM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius
RE: Are you actually of the belief that one can deny the holocaust, question the legitimacy of Israel and NOT be antisemetic? 1) The holocaust was Jesus Christ on Calvary.

What a non sequitur! The holocaust had nothing to do with Jesus as it occurred some 1,900 years later.

2) He never denied the killing of Jews by the Nazis, read your own article, the other one that you posted on Willamson. He questions the figure of 6 million, and the gas chambers killing millions.

Do you know how the figure of 6 million was derived? It accounted for all atrocities committed on Jews, Gypsies, Seventh Day Adventists, mentally/physically challenged persons...any who did not fit the Nazi ideal. Obviously RCs did because most of the nazis were Roman Catholic--including Hitler. And the figure is accurate because France, Eastern Europe and the other countries invaded by Hitler kept census records which could not account that many persons, the majority of whom were Jewish.

3) the legitimacy of Israel is question by Orthodox Jewish rabbis, are they anti-semitic to you? Look it up online for yourself.

The legitimacy of Israel was established by a U.N. world mandate in 1948--62 years ago this year. For any official to deny its legitimacy, would be as if the King of England decided the U.S. was not legitimate in 1851, 62 years after our Constitution was ratified and after he had twice been defeated in war. He would be a buffoon, which Wuilliamson is!

Bishop Willamson is a real man, and is not afraid of the secular humanist world that runs the media, he tells it like he sees it. Do you know anyone else who speaks clearly like him or the orthodox rabbis you'll find out about?

Williamson is a fraud who helped establish a cult, pure and simple. His SSPX is little different than the Legionaries of Christ which the pope has ordered investigated because of widespread sexual misconduct. Williamson's 2+2=4, 2+2=5 or 2+2=41/2 and reason "that the Vatican will have to reform" garbage he gave to the French news agency proves he is an unabashed, unapologetic, impenitent jew-hating rebel. And, if you ascribed to the doctrine of papal infallibility, then how the hell can you reconcile the fact that JPII excommunicated him only to be countermanded?

34 posted on 01/23/2010 5:53:13 PM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: meandog; Pius
You have the strangest of habits to put the quotes that you are responding to in straight text, and your own post in italics. What do you do when you want to use italics in your own post?

jew-hating

Look. That denial of methods and numbers of the Jews that perished is offensive to their memory no one disputes. But that goes too far. You are ascribing an emotion, and an unhealthy, in fact sinful one, to a man you never met, and who repeteadly denied that he is motivated by hatred.

I think Williamson is very misguided, but he should not be made what he is not. Certainly his ex-communication, or possible reconciliation have nothing to do with his musings on the events of 20c century.

Excommunications are by design instruments of reconciliation. They are done so that they can by, hopefully lifted one day. This one was no different.

35 posted on 01/23/2010 7:12:07 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Pius; meandog
Your posts are fine. I was referring to Meandogs's 34 that, to me, is backwards.

To make a segment of your post appear in italics, do this

My dear Meandog, I <i>emphatically</i> requested red casings and no mustard!

It will post like

My dear Meandog, I emphatically requested red casings and no mustard!

For more, see HTML for FReeper Newbies

Onvce you use HTML for anything, you must use it for everything. For example, you must use <P> or <BR> for line breaks.

39 posted on 01/23/2010 10:40:13 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Pius
What religion are you?

Christian! My religious denomination is Episcopal

42 posted on 01/25/2010 9:54:22 AM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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