Posted on 02/06/2010 8:21:23 PM PST by Salvation
Thanks for the Spanish lesson — see the new thread — The Knowledge of Creation!
It answers all the questions that were asked here. LOL!
MATTHEW 13:18-23 18”Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does
not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Yes. That, too, shows that once-saved-always-saved is illusory.
Let me ask you all this: If it is not true that once one is saved they are always saved, then why did Christ have to die on the cross? If we can get to heaven by works alone, there His death was needless, correct?
So that those who believe in Him may have eternal life. Strange question, coming from a Christian.
If we can get to heaven by works alone
We cannot. The Church never taught that. We are saved by grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith and works that come out of love of Christ and the fellow man (Eph. 2:8-10). We are judged by works (Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:6-10), but the fact that we are capable of any salvific charity at all is through the superabundant merits of Christ Who purchased His Church on the Cross (Acts 20:28).
If you read all of the verses you see that the seed is the Word of God. When a person hears the Word of God and understands it, then they produce works or fruits from the seed.
As John tells us that Jesus is the Word and as the parable tells us that good works come FROM Jesus AFTER accepting him, it just goes to show that good works not only come after acceptance but are the result of acceptance.
When you read the parable you see that many people will hear the Word, but not all will accept the Word. Only those who do believe/accept Jesus will produce fruit or good works. This parable does nothing to harm the theology of once saved always saved.
The fully invested is a joke with freight. The freight is: the more we are fully invested, the more we enjoy our salvation. Being saved MEANS being invested (whatever the bankers and brokers may advise ...)
I guess i was a little dense last night......or despite my husband having been in finances, fiscal analyst work — it was a phrase that never got to my ears.
Makes sense, though.
For once saved-always saved to have any meaning at all it has to apply to those who receive the faith initially. Because, first this is how in actual Protestant praxis this theology is used: “I was Roman Catholic... but when I heard that powerful sermon I knew I was saved, so I went up front and got saved right there”. I witnessed it, not once, — Ann, my wife was Protestant. I’d be in a Baptist church every week.
On the other hand, if the “saved” applies to final justification, when at the end of one’s journey one knows he is coming to the Lord (”I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, 2 Tim. 4:7”), then it is not objectionable to Catholics, even if we would cross some t’s and dotted some i’s differently.
But this initial turning to Christ is what the Parable of the Sower is in part about. One may very well receive the Word “with joy”, and then he “falls away”.
That good works follow faith is one of those chicken and egg things that the Church has no definitive teaching about. It is certainly true that one would not give anything of himself without some faith in the world to come. But then it is also true that many strangers to Christ still follow their conscience and follow the example of the Good Samaritan just on a charitable instinct. As a Catholic, but also as a student of human nature, I would say that faith enables works but then also works strengthen the faith. One thing the scripture leaves no doubt about is that faith that is expressed but not acted upon is dead faith and is not salvific (James 2).
Not strange at all.
We are not saved through “faith AND works.” That was the point. If we are saved by faith AND works, then it was not necessary for Christ to die on the cross. It’s as simple as that.
If we are saved by faith AND works, then it was not necessary for Christ to die on the cross
This is logically false. It would be true if we were saved by works alone. But if we are saved by faith and works, then it doesn't follow.
Besides, we seem to have left the realm of the scripture and ventured into philosophical speculations. Are you at all troubled by that? If you listened to scripture alone, then a reference to James 2:17-26 should suffice to answer the question the Catholic way.
I don't see how faith AND words contradicts "necessary." I do see how we have to do some fast talking (though I think we do it successfully, at least I'm persuaded) about "sufficient."
The concept of Trinity is clearly expressed in the Bible. Would you like examples? Purgatory, however, is nowhere to be found in the Bible except where the clever folks in a certain Roman enclave have twisted words and phrases to invent a Purgatory.
If you read James 2 in it’s entirety, you see that he is speaking about “faith without works”. This means that someone who is saved, without having ANY works has a faith that is dead (meaning that they have a weak or ineffective testimony for the world to see). This chapter in no way says that someone is saved by faith AND works.
In short, anyone who truly believes is not going to have a life filled with sin and NO good works. Just as when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to “go and sin no more.” Christ knew that it was impossible for her not to live a sinless life from that point forward. The point was for her to live Godly from that point forward.
Some say that He expected her to actually live sinless from that point forward, which is heretical and is to change the intent of Christ’s own words (I’m not saying you are attempting to change His words here).
Last post should’ve said it was “not possible for her to live a sinless life.” (It’s late :) )
Sure it does, even by your own summary. If faith without works does not save, then one is saved by faith and works.
Is it possible to not sin? In addition to the episode with the adulteress, where Jesus did not say what you want Him to say, 2 Peter 1 comes to mind, another direct reference to the necessity of mature faith and of works:
2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin (*) at any time.
(*) Or "shall not stumble". The original is "μη πταισητε ποτε", which is even stronger.
Sanctification is a process, which leads to a gradual reduction of sin in the person.
1 Cor. 3:8-15 describes the Purgatory directly.
Oh, it’s not bad as long as you have a good book on CD. I’ve always viewed Purgatory as a golf course, maybe with alligators and nutria in the water hazards ...
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