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To: JOAT

Interestingly, ALL examples of baptism in the Bible occur with adults who make a conscious decision to make a life-changing decision

wrong again....there are numerous examples where entire households were baptized.....confirmation establishes your willingness to accept the religion, Baptism frees you from the penalties of original sin


34 posted on 02/16/2010 7:45:52 PM PST by terycarl (4)
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To: terycarl
"Baptism frees you from the penalties of original sin"

Nonsense! - Christ paid the price of sin on the cross, and being free form the penalty thereof requires belief in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a symbol of that awakening of belief, and by itself does nothing.

37 posted on 02/16/2010 7:59:32 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: terycarl
wrong again....there are numerous examples where entire households were baptized.....confirmation establishes your willingness to accept the religion, Baptism frees you from the penalties of original sin

Considering this was my first post, how am I 'wrong' AGAIN?

Certainly there are examples of households accepting Christ, and in these examples the people involved are clearly making a choice. ALL recorded examples of actual baptisms cited in the Bible feature people who are making a decision.

See Acts 2:41, following the first gospel sermon: Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

How does one 'accept the message' to be 'added to their number' as an infant?

Consider Acts 8:26-39, the story about the conversion of the Ethiopian. The man enthusiastically demands to be baptized after he gains an understanding of the message.

You mention household conversions. One of the more famous ones was the household of Cornelius. When greeting Peter his reply as to what the purpose of summoning Peter to his home clearly demonstrates people who could understand the message: Acts chapter 10, verse 41"Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

Do you suppose the infants were listening to everything the Lord had commanded Peter to say?

Later in verse 47 Peter proclaims: "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

Do you suppose babies receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Another 'household' example is found in Acts 16:14-15: One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.

Note that it was the Lord who 'opened her heart to respond' and that after being baptized she links this to becoming a "believer."

Are babies 'believers?'

Consider Acts 19:1-7

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

Paul's natural reaction to discovering these men did not have the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit was to incredulously ask 'Then what baptism did you receive?'

Clearly decisions are being made in all these cases.

Baptism is NOT a ritual dunking in the water. Peter states this unambiguously in 1 Peter 3:21-22:

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

How does a baby engage in a "pledge of a good conscience" when being baptized?

Also note what baptism is not - not a simple physical act - the 'removal of dirt from the body.' It is a spiritual act, a 'pledge of a good conscience' that 'now saves you'

How does baptism 'save' you? Verse 21: 'It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ'

I'm looking forward to your reply citing some scripture (NOT traditions of men) regarding confirmation as being a valid concept by the way.

There are no biblical examples of this happening as far as I can see. The only CONCRETE examples we are given regarding baptism involve people who are able to make a decision at that moment, not other people making the decision for them.

This concept is borne out when you consider judgement. When you stand before God to answer for your life, you alone are responsible for all the words, thoughts and deeds you have done.

Not your parents, not your church, you.

Why should the end have a different standard than the beginning of our relationship with God?

41 posted on 02/17/2010 11:02:30 AM PST by JOAT
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To: terycarl
Since in Yah'shua's day, baptism is a Mikvah
or ritual immersion prior to going up to the temple.

The origin of infant baptism is very suspect indeed.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

42 posted on 02/17/2010 2:58:40 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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