Posted on 02/22/2010 10:21:17 AM PST by Between the Lines
Yes. This is why I quoted Rom. 5:19-20, which speaks of the just. If your objection is that the saints don't themselves "dispense" of the grace, you are right but neither the Church teaches that.
Abraham is in heaven at that point
The scripture does not say that, and the Church does not teach that. Abraham's bosom is not heaven. It is the "prison" Christ ministered to and opened (1 Peter 3:19).
2 Cor 3:18 certainly does not instruct us to behold Holy Images
But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I think it does.
There is no record of him using icons, statues, pictures, or images of any kind in his preaching
I just quoted one such record. You are rigth that it did not last long, as since 1c we don't worship in synagogues.
I said, “absolution”, that is a discovery done by the person in authority, a priest, that a confessed sin has been pardoned by God (John 20:21-23).
Abraham’s bosom is a prison! I’m sorry, I don’t get that from the text.
To be made in the image of something doesn’t mean there is a statue present to me. We of course are made in God’s image. That doesn’t imply statues or so forth.
I might entertain the idea that there might have been statues here or there if God throughout His word didn’t so strongly forbid them.
If the saints don’t dispense the grace, then I am not sure why you petition them.
I just noted the title of this thread - why the animosity? and I just wanted to further comment that certainly our exchanges and some exchanges with others don’t show animosity to me.
Disagreement doesn’t always equal animosity.
I don’t feel hatred towards anyone I talk about Catholicism/Protestantism with. I can disagree with someone without disliking or hating them. I also don’t think anyone has treated me with hatred as we have discussed these issues.
You may not get that from the text, because you rely on the text alone. However, Catholic theology is firm on this: prior to the sacrifice of the Cross, man was without ordinary recource to sanctification; righteousness was extraordinary. Death was the rule; the righteous people who died awaited the liberation from the future messiah. That was their prison, known as the limbo of the fathers.
Christ gave everyone, including those in that prison, eternal life. That opened the heavens and enabled the ininhibited communication for anyone with God, the angels and the saints. The order of the universe has changed after the Cross.
Regarding holy images, I don’t see how else to read those verses, other than as an indication that veneration of icons and statues was a practice in the Early Church and so it was described, and praised, by St. Paul. Perhaps some way to explain these prooftexts away exists, but this is how I as Catholic understand them. Your original thesis was that the Catholic worldview goes against the scripture. No, — most emphatically not. It only goes against the Protestant interpretation of it.
Thank you very much for your thoughtfullness. I wish every debate went on equally friendly terms.
“You may not get that from the text, because you rely on the text alone.”
And so we come full circle! My first post on this thread was an opinion that: what divides Protestants and Roman Catholics is our view of Scripture. All of our doctrinal divisions stem from that, in my observation.
I appreciated our conversation as well.
The views are indeed different; I merely pointed out that Catholicism is not in contradiction with the scripture.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.