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Mormons need to understand excommunication
Mormon Times ^ | Feb. 23, 2010 | Sharon Haddock

Posted on 02/23/2010 10:37:24 AM PST by Colofornian

PROVO, Utah -- Mormons need to lose their fear of talking about excommunication, says a student at the 12th Annual Religious Education Student Symposium.

Presenting his paper "Excommunication and 'He Who Must Not Be Named,'" Feb. 19 at Brigham Young University, Benjamin Tengelsen said excommunication is comparable to talking openly about Voldemort in the popular Harry Potter series.

"Noboby talks about him except Harry, who isn't afraid to say his name out loud," Tengelsen said. "We need to be like that. We need to lose our fear and be unafraid to talk about it."

As long as the subject of excommunication is a taboo topic, fear and misinformation hurt those involved, he said.

Tengelsen outlined the three purposes of church discipline or excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: to save the soul of the transgressor, to protect the innocent and to maintain the integrity, purity and good name of the church.

"To be excommunicated doesn't mean they are kicked out," he said. "They are still welcome at church meetings and activities with limited participation."

Tengelsen said there are symbolic lessons in the process, reminders that the Lord looks at the heart of the transgressor and remembers the sin no more once the sinner has truly repented.

Also, as people all do at the final judgment, there is an advocate for the one standing before the court.

"I like to think we'll have people rooting for us (at the final judgment)," Tengelsen said. "We know Christ will be pleading for us."

Tengelsen explained that in stake disciplinary hearings half of the high council is appointed to speak in behalf of the accused and that person is welcome to bring his or her own witnesses. The person judged also has the right to appeal the decision of the local council.

He said the rules are set up to be flexible and laid down so that the age, maturity, degree of repentance and public profile as well as the affected family of the individual whose membership is in question can be taken into account.

Tengelsen also pointed out that after someone who has been excommunicated is baptized again into the church, membership records only show the original baptism and ordination dates.

"It's an example of the promise we have that when we repent, God really does forget it," he said.


TOPICS: Moral Issues; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; christian; discipline; excommunication; lds; mormon; mormon1
From the article: Tengelsen said there are symbolic lessons in the process, reminders that the Lord looks at the heart of the transgressor and remembers the sin no more once the sinner has truly repented.

Is Tengelson representing the "traditional" Mormon view on this??? No!!! According to Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, does the Mormon god ONLY look @ the heart? Does Kimball say that repentance and then at least trying to abandon sin is enough? (No!) Besides what he says on p. 176 in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, on this exact topic he even goes so far to elevate the idea of "Trying is NOT sufficient" by giving it a sub-title in chapter 12 (p. 164).

In this book Kimball says if Mormons "repent" of a sin -- but then re-commit that same sin...guess what? Well, that person never really repented of that sin in the first place! Imagine all the LDS "young people" who have "repented" of the sin of lust. But then they lust again. (Well, the LDS "prophet" said that then they never really repented of it to begin with -- they're all back to ground zero).

It's like imagining a spiritual game of Shoots & Ladders where most of the contestants always wind up back @ the bottom. Why? 'Cause it's a "game" based entirely upon the ability of somebody to self-will and self-repent once & for all from every single sin out there. Sins of commission. Sins of omission. All thousands of the types of sins out there. Catalogued 1 by 1.

Now that's depressing!

From the article: ...remembers the sin no more once the sinner has truly repented.

Ah, the Mormon "catch-22" -- defining what "truly repented" means!!!

To unravel this mystery, why, we need to unpack Lds "prophet" Kimball's writings in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness:

"...it is not REAL repentance until one has abandoned the error of his way and started on a new path." (p. 163)

"Old sins return...Many people either do not know this or they conveniently forget it...Would this mean that the person who has returned to the sins he has professedly abandoned must start the process of repentance again from the beginning? that one cannot return to sin and then start repentance from where he left off?" (pp. 169-170)

"Discontinuance of sin MUST be PERMANENT." (p. 176)

So, let's put Kimball altogether: Unless the repentance has led a permanent abandonment of the sin -- and not simply an attempt at it (pp 163-164, 176), he implies on p. 170 that the person "must start the process of repentance again from the beginning."

Obviously Scripture tells us in the book of Acts that our repentance is to be of such a nature that it bears fruit befit of that repentance. Also, we could probably all agree that the literal meaning of "repentance" is to do a "u-turn." So, fruit covers the external dimension -- and the Greek word for "repentance" covers the inward -- the mind -- a change of mind.

The problems are how Kimball handled his "shoots and ladder" approach to what is or what isn't "real" repentance -- plus his totally subjective almost burning-in-the-bosom approach to knowing if you've been forgiven or not. The latter part is downright dangerous and could further reinforce ideas undergirding depression and even attempted suicide.

Bottom line: How do Mormons know if they have "truly repented"??? Mormons are stuck in the catch-22 of Mormon repentance: The LDS "prophet" tells you to repent of sin. You repent of a sin. You make spiritual progress. You commit the same sin. The LDS "prophet" says, "Well, then, you NEVER really repented to begin with. Go back to ground zero." The Mormon returns there. Climbs upwards again. And the shoots-and-ladder minefield tags the person again upon the same sin cropping up.

1 posted on 02/23/2010 10:37:25 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: ...He said the rules are set up...

Rules & regs, eh? (Is that what any church is all about?)

Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife:
(1) You have to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You have to tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You have to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You have to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You have to have as many children as possible
(6) You have to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You have to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You have to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You have to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10)You have to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

More examples of legalism? Look, for example, at this mainstream Lds church curricula book, Gospel Principles, and how forgiveness is NOT tied to Jesus' cross...rather, it's tied to whether or not YOU live the commandments. The Mormon church says the primary impetus for God's forgiveness isn't based upon His grace & mercy, but rather upon living the person's commandments (legalism):

"To make our repentance complete we MUST ALWAYS keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). A person is not fully repentant who does not pay this tithes or does not keep the Sabbath day holy or refuses to obey the Word of Wisdom. He is not repentant if he does not sustain the authorities of the Church and does not love the Lord or his fellowmen. A man who fails to have his family prayers and who is unkind to his family and others is surely not repentant...President [Spencer W.] Kimball said...spend the balance of your lives trying to live the commandments of the Lord SO he can EVENTUALLY pardon you and cleanse you." (Lds church, Gospel Principles, p. 120-122, citing Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200)

The clear teaching here is that you MUST FIRST EARN forgiveness by ALWAYS living/keeping the commandments -- and THEN God might "eventually" forgive. How foreign to the true gospel -- where God forgives you NOT on the basis of your obedience level, but due to His own graciousness and mercy revealed in the Person of His Son dying on the cross for our sin.

We weren't perfectly obedient; He was.
We weren't capable of that; He was.
We weren't "pardon-worthy" nor will become it; His mercy trumps that.
We can't claim cleansing merit; His grace is merit-free -- a gift -- or it ain't grace at all!

2 posted on 02/23/2010 10:49:10 AM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: Colofornian

Doesn’t sound like a Christian religion to me.


3 posted on 02/23/2010 10:51:40 AM PST by dis.kevin (Dry white toast)
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To: All
From the article: Tengelsen also pointed out that after someone who has been excommunicated is baptized again into the church, membership records only show the original baptism and ordination dates.

Ah, the big difference between relating to "religion" vs. relating to "Christ": WHO are we baptized into?

If you're part of mere "religion" you're baptized into a church. If you're a true part of Jesus Christ's family, you're baptized into HIM!!!

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3)

Come out of relating to "religion" -- and be baptized into Christ Himself!

4 posted on 02/23/2010 10:55:14 AM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: dis.kevin
Doesn’t sound like a Christian religion to me.

Exactly. (See post #4)

5 posted on 02/23/2010 10:55:51 AM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: Colofornian

And yet God will never leave us nor forsake us...

The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.” Deuteronomy 31:8

No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. Joshua 1:5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5

Just because unGodly men shun us and cut us off from their company, does not effect God...

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38, 39


6 posted on 02/23/2010 11:02:48 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
These people do not only want to be called christian (but that is new), they want us to believe they hold the Bible in high regard at the same time they are trashing it.
When they say they are peculiar they are not kidding.
7 posted on 02/23/2010 11:21:44 AM PST by svcw (If you are going to quote the Bible know what you are quoting.)
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To: Colofornian
If one's salvation is wholly dependent on one's membership in the church and being of good standing then it was never secure to begin with and the promise of false hope and a false god. To wit:
It comes from men of such sexual avarice they made church law regarding plural marriages a right of men, whom god had blessed for calling.
 
Despite god calling for man and woman to cleave to each other as one.
 
Perhaps this gem was not a mistake. Though there was apparently a "New Revelation" regarding marriage being revealed as a monogamy rite, with the practice of plural marriages being cast aside, for this new information.
 

George Q. Cannon on plural marriage:

"If we, as a people, had attempted to practice this principle without revelation, it is likely that we should have been led into grievous sins, and the condemnation of God would have rested upon us; but the Church waited until the proper time came, and then the people practiced it according to the mind and will of God, making a sacrifice of their own feelings in so doing..."
 
He goes on inventing justification of polygamy:
"... It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest-lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."
 
Never mind the statehood of Utah was not to happen unless the practice of polygamy ceased, as a demnad from the U.S. government for granting charter and inclusion into the Federal system of United States.
 
So what happened to God's inculcation for a man to take as many wives as he might desire and could financially sustain?
 
Enter Wilford Woodruff, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Woodruff pens the Woodruff Manifesto which was created as a PR tool to support requirements of statehood but with no real reform in LDS stance.  The manifesto was made possible by "A New Revelation" Woodruff received on September 23, 1890, from Jesus Christ, that the church should end the practice of polygamy.  
 
The manifesto reads, in part:
"...Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I heareby declare my intention to submit to those laws, to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
"There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
During this time of solicitation and petition for inclusion into the United States, the Federal Government had moved to dissolve the church and seize their assets.
 
Six years latter, Statehood was indeed granted and the church once again had a revelation of convenience over a struggle of independance and a desire for inclusion into the many states of the federal government.
 
Despite the manifesto and statehood, polygamy was, in fact, practiced and ordained where it was believed to be legal and therefore the church stance, at that time, was wholly hypocritical, expedient in excersise of a means to an end and by ommission of authority and looking the other way, not really a reform at all.  Other places would have their plural marriages sanctioned but not in Utah.
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed:
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Hmmm... Now Orson Pratt was a member of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and  good of Joseph Smith.   He took on ten wives, including a 16 year old girl.
 
Now, his wife strenuously objected, divorced Mr. Pratt and formed the Anti-Polygamy Society.
 
Truth to Power and Sarah was excommunicated for allegations of adultery.  Laughable in that she had already quit the church and made her views known.  But they had to brand her with a mark that is unmistakable and unforgivable in the Church of Christ, Latter Day Saints.
 
Mr. Pratt rejoined the church and was probably comfortable knowing his salvation was once again secure, though his now ex-wife was damned and going to hell.
 
There was absolutely no proof, but for the word of Brigham Young who had come onto Mr. Pratt's wife declaring god had sent him forth to ask for her hand and that by his ordination she was obliged to enter into a new marriage, despite already being married to man, who was out of the country in service to the church.  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.
 
Odd, in that God seems willing to forgive us for mistakes but those who would seek to become gods themselves haven't the same capacity.
 
This viewpoint is not unique or peculiar to any time in the LDS history but rather an endemic global view and approved by Church elders, Apostles and Quorums.
 
To wit a demonstation of being in lock step with Joseph Smith's view regarding Chrisianity:
 
"virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.269);
 
 
 
 
 

8 posted on 02/23/2010 11:23:17 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Colofornian
It must SUCK to be a MORMON!
9 posted on 02/23/2010 11:32:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian

“To be excommunicated doesn’t mean they are kicked out,” he said. “They are still welcome at church meetings and activities with limited participation.”

So...like many other words, “excommunicated” doesn’t mean to mormons what it means to well, everyone else?


11 posted on 02/23/2010 1:22:04 PM PST by Grunthor (The more people I meet, the more I love my dogs.)
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To: Colofornian

“Rules & regs, eh? (Is that what any church is all about?)”

I can think of ten of them off the top of my head that my church seems to find important for some reason.

:o)


12 posted on 02/23/2010 1:23:14 PM PST by Grunthor (The more people I meet, the more I love my dogs.)
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To: Elsie
It's not a religion for you or for me.

But it's their religion and warrants the same respect you expect for yours.

13 posted on 02/23/2010 1:56:36 PM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: Tennessee Nana

BTTT


14 posted on 02/23/2010 3:30:40 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Vendome; All
George Q. Cannon on plural marriage:

"If we, as a people, had attempted to practice this principle without revelation, it is likely that we should have been led into grievous sins, and the condemnation of God would have rested upon us; but the Church waited until the proper time came, and then the people practiced it according to the mind and will of God, making a sacrifice of their own feelings in so doing..." [He goes on inventing justification of polygamy:] "... It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest-lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."

Well, I'm glad you cited the Cannon family -- the key family behind the history of the Lds Church-owned newspaper, The Deseret News. So, here -- you can add the following "gem" to your collection of George Q. Cannon polygamy quotes:

At a stake conference over 100 years ago, mainstream LDS leader George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency said: The people of the world do not believe in breeding, but we do. So the people of the world will die out and we will fill the whole earth. I admit those raising children by plural wives are not complying with man-made laws, but in the sight of God they are not sinning, as there is no sin in it. (George Q. Cannon, Sanpete Stake conference, Sept., 1899. Smoot Investigation, Vol. 1, p. 9.) [BTW, Cannon said this NINE years AFTER the manifesto slowing down polygamy...and fLDS still cite this LDS source!!]

So, Lds tell us. Was this member of the "First Presidency" wrong in saying that polygamy is "not sinning, as there is no sin in it". If that's the case, on what grounds do Lds First Presidencies now ex-communicate anybody?

And remember, Cannon said that in 1899...so you can't run away from this quote as some sort of "pre-Manifesto" comment.

Choice? Lds Mormons -- either your 1899 First Presidency was a false general authority in pretending to speak for God, OR your 2010 First Presidency is false. Both of them CANNOT be right. Polygamy can't both be NOT a sin and an excommunicable disease worthy of church booting.

So, which First Presidency is/was in error? (Stop lurking on Q like this & come out of the closet)

15 posted on 02/23/2010 4:40:59 PM PST by Colofornian (As the Lds once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: Colofornian
Tengelsen also pointed out that after someone who has been excommunicated is baptized again into the church

I love that comment!

I have had mormons tell me that "We are baptized 'in the name of Jesus Christ', not into the Capital-C-Church...one reason I usually post "baptized and confirmed as a member".

Just happy to see someone come out of the closet, LOL.

16 posted on 02/23/2010 4:48:18 PM PST by greyfoxx39 ("The Economy Is So Bad, Even 'Rosy Scenario' Lost Her Job"-Jim Geraghty)
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To: svcw

LOL!


17 posted on 02/23/2010 4:49:53 PM PST by greyfoxx39 ("The Economy Is So Bad, Even 'Rosy Scenario' Lost Her Job"-Jim Geraghty)
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To: Elsie
"It must SUCK to be a MORMON!"

No,...not really.

18 posted on 02/24/2010 3:15:10 AM PST by GreyMountainReagan ("For Death is in charge of the clattering train")
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To: Vendome
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed:
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Now just WHY would the man say all that???



 

 
 

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 14
 
An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the Gentiles—There are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil—The saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable church—The apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C. 
 
   1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
  2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
  3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
  4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
  5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
  6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
  7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
  8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
  9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
  10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
  11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
  12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
  13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
  14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
  15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
  16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
  17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
  18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
  19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
  20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
  22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
  23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
  24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
  25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
  26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
  27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
  28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
  29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
  30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.

19 posted on 02/24/2010 3:53:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: starlifter
But it's their religion and warrants the same respect you expect for yours.

No; it does not.

THEY do NOT 'respect' ANY religion other than their own.


 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

 

20 posted on 02/24/2010 3:55:41 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
 
Choice? Lds Mormons -- either your 1899 First Presidency was a false general authority in pretending to speak for God, OR your 2010 First Presidency is false. Both of them CANNOT be right.
 
 

Obviously you do NOT understand much!!  It depends on the TIMING!!
 
Hear this from the mouth of a late Prophet of MORMONism:
 

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)


21 posted on 02/24/2010 4:00:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Mormons need to understand excommunication
 
 
Yeah...
They can be excommunicated if they follow Gods word!
 
 
D&C 132:58-66
 



 
 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
 
 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 

  58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
  59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.
  60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
  61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
  62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
  63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.
  64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
  65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
  66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
 
 

22 posted on 02/24/2010 4:06:07 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Look, for example, at this mainstream Lds church curricula book, Gospel Principles, and how forgiveness is NOT tied to Jesus' cross...rather, it's tied to whether or not YOU live the commandments.

Oh you foolish Galatians!

WHO has bewitched you?

23 posted on 02/24/2010 4:11:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

What the? I just realized, they are using nomenclature from the 15th century, interspersed with 18th century vernacular.

I have a thought on it but, as I was up all night, my mind ain’t a workin’ so wells.


24 posted on 02/24/2010 6:42:04 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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