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Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom (Scriptures Agree With Catholic Church)
Scripture Catholic ^ | n/a | John Salza

Posted on 02/24/2010 11:17:16 AM PST by Pyro7480

III. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; mary; scripture
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1 posted on 02/24/2010 11:17:16 AM PST by Pyro7480
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 02/24/2010 11:18:07 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Mary Queen of Knights, Pray for us!


3 posted on 02/24/2010 11:26:58 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Pyro7480
Mathew 13:

55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him.

But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

.

Mary was the mother of several children and she was blessed by God the Father....and Jesus her son and my Saviour

4 posted on 02/24/2010 11:29:40 AM PST by rface
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To: rface
Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."...

5 posted on 02/24/2010 11:33:01 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Mary is who she is because Jesus is what he is, the Catholic Church has always defined Mary with regards to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

That so many believe that devotion to her is detraction from Him is sad.


6 posted on 02/24/2010 11:34:49 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Pyro7480

You really think scripture takes that much explaining?

Why not just be intellectually honest and consider that scripture means what it says and doesn’t need you twisting it to fit manmade dogma.


7 posted on 02/24/2010 11:36:25 AM PST by Jedidah (Character, courage, common sense are more important than issues.)
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To: Jedidah
You really think scripture takes that much explaining?

Why don't you ask any "Reformed" preacher after he gives his long sermon?

8 posted on 02/24/2010 11:37:57 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

Please note that a direct quote from scripture says “and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” NOTE THE DIRECT REFERENCE TO “THIS DISCIPLE”. NOT “ALL” (CAPS for emphasis, not shouting at you)

When you freelance scripture, you lose your audience. IMHO.


9 posted on 02/24/2010 11:43:50 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Pyro7480

Correcting a posting error — my full post was actually—


I don’t usually get into these discussions, as I don’t “have a dog in this hunt” but...

Here’s the NIV translation of John 19:26-27 -—

26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

This is NOT what the author puts in his very first ‘scripture’ quotation and interpretation. See below:

**John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. **

I therefore find the very first line to contain a less than genuine reference to scripture, and cannot support in logic the conclusion that “he (sic) gave Mary to all of us”.

While a direct quote from scripture says “and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” NOTE THE DIRECT REFERENCE TO “THIS DISCIPLE”.

When you freelance scripture, you lose your audience. IMHO.


10 posted on 02/24/2010 11:45:37 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Pyro7480

26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. - John 19:26-27

The Scripture clearly states Jesus was speaking to His disciple (John), not His “disciples”, and that His “disciple” took her to “his own home”. He was making provision for His mother, not calling her the mother of all believers.

But hey, why let the Scriptures get in the way of a nice bit of heresy and goddess worship?


11 posted on 02/24/2010 11:52:57 AM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: Blueflag

The interpretation that Jesus was not talking specifically to John but to every believer is contrary to the text. It is trying to force Scripture to fit a particular a priori theological position. Mary will be Semper Virgo by virtue of her relationship to Jesus, but it is plain from Scripture that she had other children in a natural way. The interpretation that Mary was physically a virgin throughout her life is based more upon the Roman Catholic view that virginity is a higher spiritual estate. The thought of Mary having sexual intercourse would somehow defile her.


12 posted on 02/24/2010 11:58:39 AM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Above My Pay Grade
The Scripture clearly states Jesus was speaking to His disciple (John), not His “disciples”, and that His “disciple” took her to “his own home”. He was making provision for His mother, not calling her the mother of all believers.

But doesn't that run contrary to your claim that Jesus has brothers and sisters? If He perfectly fulfilled the law, He would have left His Mother to them.

13 posted on 02/24/2010 12:01:12 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

As long as you trust (believe, adhere and follow) in the finished (once for all) work of Jesus Christ on the cross as all that is necessary for your salvation, and that all men (and women) born otherwise are in desparate need of this propitiary substitute payment for each of our personal sins, you are saved.

Mary, favored by God to be the human vessel to give human birth to Jesus the Christ, was in need of this salavation as are the rest of all mankind.

Homage, worship and adoration is reserved for God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all else is idolatry.

Try reading the Bible (the Duay version if need be) alone and w/o commentary to see the single pointed thread common throughout-man is lost and needs God alone to provide a way out of the lost state.

Hey, It is after all, YOUR eternal life at stake.....


14 posted on 02/24/2010 12:06:26 PM PST by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret), "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War" (my spelling is generally korrect!))
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To: Pyro7480
John 7

Jesus Goes to the Feast of Tabernacles

1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. 8You go to the Feast. I am not yet[a] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." 9Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.

10However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.....

15 posted on 02/24/2010 12:06:48 PM PST by rface
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To: Above My Pay Grade
But hey, why let the Scriptures get in the way of a nice bit of heresy and goddess worship?

On the contrary, the burden of proof is on the "Reformed" to prove their charges of heresy and "goddess worship."

16 posted on 02/24/2010 12:09:57 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: rface

Is the important thing here whether Mary had children, or even whether Mary died a Virgin?

Isn’t the important thing here that somehow Mary gets to be “Queen” for all eternity, a position of power and authority that has no biblical reference?


17 posted on 02/24/2010 12:13:27 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: All

Will all of the infallible arbiters of doctrine and infallible interpreters of Scripture present on this thread please identify themselves?


18 posted on 02/24/2010 12:13:32 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Is that your belief?


19 posted on 02/24/2010 12:14:41 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Jedidah

Pyro7480 is posting from SCRIPTURE catholic.

Why fear the scriptures, the more information the better.

The question is incredibly simple - is Matthew 13:55 referring to a term that always and only refers to a person’s biological brother and sister or did he use a term that is more inclusive of extended relatives referring to cousins, etc.

The original greek word is “adelphoi” which doesnt mean always biological brother and sister, it can mean cousin.

I think to be intellectually honest you have to accept that Matthew was not written in English and words have meanings and the most honest way to look at it is to go back to the original greek. By ignoring the original Greek and the meaning of the original greek you “are twisting it to fit (your) manmade (errant) dogma,” i.e. that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.


20 posted on 02/24/2010 12:15:17 PM PST by Nickh
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To: Pyro7480
Best advice ever given to any human person by another human person:

"Do whatever He tells you."
-Mary of Nazareth

21 posted on 02/24/2010 12:16:22 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Isn’t the important thing here that somehow Mary gets to be “Queen” for all eternity, a position of power and authority that has no biblical reference?

The author above demostrates, using Scripture, that just as the earthly Davidic kingdom had a queen, the eternal Kingdom, which has no end, as Luke 1 states, which is ruled by THE Son of David, has a queen.

22 posted on 02/24/2010 12:17:26 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

And you guys don’t worship Mary, huh?


23 posted on 02/24/2010 12:18:49 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pyro7480

God abandons Israel for worshiping the Queen of Heaven:

Jeremiah 44:

19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”

20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”

24 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, “Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah in Egypt. 25 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, ‘We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.’
“Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! 26 But hear the word of the LORD, all Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, “As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives.” 27 For I am watching over them for harm, not for good....


24 posted on 02/24/2010 12:24:54 PM PST by esquirette (If we do not know our own worldview, we will accept theirs.)
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To: Pyro7480

The Scriptures clearly refer to Jesus’ brothers and sisters in many places. He likely put her in John’s care because John was a believer and His brothers and sisters were not, at that point in time.

Also, if His brothers and sisters did not take on the obligation to care for their mother, it would be them violating the law, not Him. Arragning for a substiture “son” to care for her, would beatifully fulfill the spirit of the Law.

Of course, the Scriptures do not state why He commended Mary to John, so we don’t really know. What the Scriptures do state, and therefore we know beyond any doubt is that Jesus had brothers and sisters.


25 posted on 02/24/2010 12:26:30 PM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: P-Marlowe
She is a CREATURE, and therefore, unworthy of the adoration due to the God. In fact, the Byzantine liturgy of both the Eastern Orthodox and the Byzantine Eastern Catholics acknowledges the fact that she is a creature, and yet, higher than the angels:

"It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos."

26 posted on 02/24/2010 12:26:36 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: P-Marlowe

“And you guys don’t worship Mary, huh?”

That’s right, Catholics don’t worship Mary. If you worship Mary you get get kicked out.

Freegards


27 posted on 02/24/2010 12:26:55 PM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: esquirette

Yes, use that straw man again. You can’t argue with the Scrpture presented above though.


28 posted on 02/24/2010 12:27:33 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Yes. I agree with what I wrote.

There is no reference in scripture to a position of "Queen" in the new Heaven, or the new Earth. There is no indication in Scripture that God desires, wants, or will have a "Queen", or that this "Queen" will serve with Jesus, the King of Kings.

Psalm 45:9 doesn't refer to God, it refers to David's earthly King, who did have a Queen:

Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

8All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

9Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Note that God is referenced in verse 7, and is the God of the "thy" being referenced ("thy God"). So Verse 9's "thy" is the "thy" for whom God is God, not God. Putting them together, "God is your God, and on your right hand the queen stood".

1st Kings 2:18-19 are not about "intercession", they are about a son wanting to ask his father to get a wife for him, and doing so through the King's mother.

Worse, the result of that "intercession" was that the King refused, mocked his mother for allowing herself to be used, and swore to kill the son for petitioning him through his mother.

Hardly an "example" of some exalted Queen sitting on the right hand of God from whom we should ask for intercession:

18And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.

19Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

20Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

21And she said, Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah thy brother to wife.

22And king Solomon answered and said unto his mother, And why dost thou ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? ask for him the kingdom also; for he is mine elder brother; even for him, and for Abiathar the priest, and for Joab the son of Zeruiah.

23Then king Solomon sware by the LORD, saying, God do so to me, and more also, if Adonijah have not spoken this word against his own life.

Scripture is not impossible to understand.
29 posted on 02/24/2010 12:28:40 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Isn’t the important thing here ......

actually......yes

30 posted on 02/24/2010 12:32:02 PM PST by rface
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To: Pyro7480

See my post 29, which shows two of the scriptures referencing “queen” given above do not support the argument.

There is no scripture that indicates heaven will have a Queen, or that a Queen would be needed with Jesus as the King of Kings.

Even if you were to accept that Mary is somehow needed for intercession now because of our own imperfection keeping us from speaking directly to Jesus, the biblical intercessor, there is no reason to need an additional intermediary when we become perfect in Heaven.

We will be able to look directly upon the face of God, and will have everything we need. Why would anybody in Heaven use a 3rd-party intercessor at that point?


31 posted on 02/24/2010 12:33:38 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Scripture is not impossible to understand.

I certainly agree with that. I don't agree with your interpretation, though. Do you claim that your interpretation is infallibly correct?

I Kings 2:
13And Adonias the son of Haggith came to Bethsabee the mother of Solomon. And she said to him: Is thy coming peaceable? he answered: Peaceable. 14And he added: I have a word to speak with thee. She said to him: Speak. And he said: 15Thou knowest that the kingdom was nine, and all Israel had preferred me to be their king: but the kingdom is transferred, and is become my brother's: for it was appointed him by the Lord. 16Now therefore I ask one petition of thee: turn not away my face. And she said to him: Say on. 17And he said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon (for he cannot deny thee any thing) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife. 18And Bethsabee said: Well, I will speak for thee to the king. 19Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. 20And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face.

Obviously, Solomon ended up rejecting her request ... not because she didn't have the right to make it, but because it was an evil request.

32 posted on 02/24/2010 12:39:05 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
There is no scripture that indicates heaven will have a Queen, or that a Queen would be needed with Jesus as the King of Kings.

The author addresses your point.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

33 posted on 02/24/2010 12:39:30 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480
The site awesome to the extent it misunderstands the obvious as at Matt. 12:46-50 where Jesus compares his physical brothers with his spiritual brothers.

Matthew understood the difference between Jesus’ fleshly and spiritual brothers and so did the person that alerted Jesus to their presence but that obvious statement of Matthew and Jesus would mean Mary had children by Joseph in the typical way.

As this site shows trying to fit myths into the Scriptures distorts the meaning of the Scriptures.(see the Protoevangelium of James)

34 posted on 02/24/2010 12:40:07 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Pyro7480
In Revelation, John bowed before the Angel and he was told to stop it because such worship was only reserved for God and not his creation. If we cannot bow down before Angels, then why would we bow before Mary?

From the Catholic translation: And I, John, who have heard and seen these things. And after I had heard and seen, I fell down to adore before the feet of the angel, who shewed me these things. And he said to me: See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them that keep the words of the prophecy of this book. Adore God.
Revelation 22: 8-9 Douay-Rheims Bible

So if the Angel tells John not to bow down and give him adoration and to reserve such adoration for God alone, then why do so many Catholics bow down before the feet of Mary and adore her?

Seems pretty clear that such behavior is forbidden.

35 posted on 02/24/2010 12:52:08 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pyro7480

“You can’t argue with the Scripture presented above though.”

Well, I shall give it a try.

The extrapolations and inferences given to these verses would never stand up in court.


36 posted on 02/24/2010 12:55:12 PM PST by esquirette (If we do not know our own worldview, we will accept theirs.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Psalm 45:9 doesn't refer to God, it refers to David's earthly King, who did have a Queen:

The whole of Ps 45 is traditionally interpreted as a Messianic prophecy. Its immediate reference is to Solomon, who was a "type" (foreshadowing) of the Christ (cf 1 Chron 17:12-14). Don't take my word for that, take the word of the author of Hebrews 1:8-9, which quotes Ps 45 verbatim and says it speaks "of the Son".

The "Queen" referenced here is the Queen Mother (of Solomon, that is), who bore the title gebirah ("great lady") in Hebrew. That makes her precisely the "type" (foreshadowing) of the Queen Mother of the true Solomon, Jesus Christ.

Do a word search sometime through the historical books of the OT of how many times it mentions the king's mother (either by name or by relationship). You'll see that they're mentioned often.

37 posted on 02/24/2010 12:58:15 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe

Catholics are expressly forbidden from adoring Mary. Look it up.


38 posted on 02/24/2010 12:59:31 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe; Pyro7480
The Church consistently and continuously teaches that adoring ANYONE or ANYTHING other than The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit is a grave sin of idolatry.

The Church has excommunicated folks who were into adoring Mary.

So yes, such behaviour is indeed fobidden. That's why we don't do it, and kick out those who do.

39 posted on 02/24/2010 1:03:21 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: esquirette

Whew! If those are proofs of the Queenship of Mary then I’m the King of Spain.


40 posted on 02/24/2010 1:30:51 PM PST by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: ArrogantBustard

I’m certainly not infallible. And certainly there’s nothing to suggest that Bathsheeba didn’t have a right to make a request. I was arguing that the passage didn’t support the view that it was meant to foreshadow Mary interceding for us in Heaven as Queen. If one meant to foreshadow such a thing, why would you choose to do so with a story where the intercessor hears and passes on an evil request — certainly, Mary the Queen of Heaven wouldn’t be expected to ask God for evil on our behalf.

I’m not a big fan of basing doctrine on foreshadowing, although I don’t deny that old testament scripture does contain foreshadowing in some circumstances, clearly it does as Jesus pointed out.

Nor do I deny the use of old testament stories as allegories for profound biblical truths which might otherwise not been found clearly. Again, we have examples from Jesus of that.

But examples within scripture come from people who, without any other biblical reference, would still have been understood to be speaking on God’s behalf — so we aren’t using the old testament allegories to believe their message, their message stands on it’s own.

I have appreciated our conversation.


41 posted on 02/24/2010 1:45:53 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT; ArrogantBustard
I have appreciated our conversation.

And I certainly appreciate how you two conducted your conversation! :-)

42 posted on 02/24/2010 1:48:36 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: the_conscience
Pleased to meet you!
43 posted on 02/24/2010 1:49:56 PM PST by BlueDragon (there is no such thing as a "true" compass, all are subject to both variation & deviation)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
If one meant to foreshadow such a thing, why would you choose to do so with a story where the intercessor hears and passes on an evil request — certainly, Mary the Queen of Heaven wouldn’t be expected to ask God for evil on our behalf.

IMOPIOS,

1) The passage illustrates the Queen Mother's position as an intercessor. Solomon doesn't get mad when she asks to ask a favor ... he gets mad when the favor asked is an evil one.

2) that foreshadowing fits very neatly with Adam's disobedience foreshadowing Christ's obedience to the Father. And when Mary does act as an intercessor (at Cana), her request is good, and Jesus grants it in a big way.

44 posted on 02/24/2010 1:53:11 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Pyro7480; CharlesWayneCT
Thank you, Pyro. Since none of us are infallible, and none of us are mind readers, I think it best to turn off the flamethrowers, discuss matters in good faith, and give the other guy credit for acting in good faith as well.

Even if folks don't come to agreement, civil discussion can be both edifying and spiritually fulfilling.

45 posted on 02/24/2010 1:57:42 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

The Cana reference is problematic for the opposite reason. The request is good, and Jesus does grant it, but he certainly acts like her even asking the question is less than accceptable, like he is tolerating her request rather than graciously hearing and granting her request.


46 posted on 02/24/2010 1:59:54 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
It seems to me that Jesus was a bit "short" with many folk who asked something of him ... almost like He was testing their faith. At Cana, Mary's response to Jesus' "shortness" was simply to turn and instruct the waiters "do whatever He tells you". (Best advice ever, as I noted previously.) I believe that by doing so, she excellently illustrates the the absolute and complete faith in God that we are all called to embrace.

I'd also note that, while Solomon's kingship was obvious, Jesus' was not. Yet. It is, now.

47 posted on 02/24/2010 2:06:23 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Campion
Catholics are expressly forbidden from adoring Mary. Look it up.

So why do you bow and kneel before statues of Mary and sing praises to her name?

48 posted on 02/24/2010 2:11:04 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The Church has excommunicated folks who were into adoring Mary.

So how can one objectively tell the difference between the adoration of Mary and the veneration of Mary? From my point of view they look exactly alike.

49 posted on 02/24/2010 2:13:29 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

The Angel Gabriel and St. Elizabeth did as much: “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women....And she [Elizabeth] cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”


50 posted on 02/24/2010 2:15:24 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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