Posted on 02/24/2010 11:17:16 AM PST by Pyro7480
Jvette wrote:
“Jesus said many things plainly that were misunderstood by His disciples even unto this day. Did not Jesus also say that He had many other things to tell His apostles but that there was no time? Did He not promise that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete would remind them and lead them to all truth?”
Yes, Jesus did say and promise all of this. And through Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude He kept His promise. Through these the Holy Spirit continues to remind us all and lead us to all truth.
Jvette also wrote:
“Does not Scripture ensure us that there is much more to God and Jesus that is not written about in Scripture?”
Again, yes indeed. (John 20:30 and 21:25) But nowhere there or anywhere did John indicate that the Church needed to know those many other things or that God would reveal them to her. In fact, the very same John would later write: “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, where are described in this book.” (Revelation 22:18-19)
Now, you may argue that John was speaking only about the Apocalypse, but that is a pretty hollow argument. The Roman church has added dogma to Christian teaching, dogma that, if not believed, condemns one. That would be the purpose of the “anathema” for those who live in Rio Linda.
What has Rome added? Among other things, the following:
The second dogma, the “Immaculate Conception,” was proclaimed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilit Deus. It proclaimed that the Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved immune from all stain of original sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 491)
The third dogma, the “Assumption of Mary,” was proclaimed in 1950 by Pope Pius XII in Lumen Gentium. It proclaimed that the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966)
So, Jvette, you speak very mildly and kindly, for which I commend you. But the papacy and its magisterium that you commend to us, does not speak so mildly and kindly about the things it demands of our conscience on pain of damnation, things they and they alone have concocted.
I will stay with St. John. You can have the successors, so-called, of St. Peter.
Jvette said:
“Through her came salvation. Through her came redemption. Through her came LOVE. Through her came grace. Through her came Jesus and through Him all are drawn to God and are sons and daughters of Him.”
The same could be said of every single one of the progenitors of Jesus, all the way back to Eve.
Where is the command of God to venerate Mary? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so? There is none. Thus all who do so stand on very uncertain ground.
Where is the command of God to consider and use Mary as mediator? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so?
You want the world to do as you do, think as you think, and believe as you believe regarding Mary. But were is the clear and unambiguous indication from God that we should do so?
Israel repeatedly incurred God’s wrath because they did what said not to do, failed to do what He told them to do, and operated continually on the basis of their own judgment about what would or would not be good and helpful. Why should anyone believe what you say regarding Mary when you operate similarly? Where is the command? Where is the clear indication that we should do as you want and yourself do?
And you wonder why you fail to convince?
If God says it, it is so. Plain and simple. Where does God say, “Venerate Mary”? Where does God say, “Call upon Mary as mediator”? Where does God even faintly indicate such to me, to the church at large?
Finally, when Jesus teaches us plainly on the very night He was betrayed that we can and should call upon the Father directly, and that we will be heard for His sake and in His name, (John 16:23-30), why do you tell us to do differently? Answer this simple question.
= = =
EXCELLENT.
ACCURATE.
BIBLICAL.
NO RUBBER ‘LOGIC.’
TRUE.
SKILLFULLY PUT.
THANKS BIG.
I know of NO Biblical evidence, much less
Biblical proof
that the authentic Mary is the least bit involved with any mortals this side of Eternity to any degree in any way for any reason.
Fantasies fostered by farcical fractures from the fires of hell are ferociously fatally flawed.
Mummy fantasies may be comforting to many 2 year olds.
They are an extremely hazardous excuse for sound theology.
Evasion of Biblical, logical, historical facts
is probably taught at a young age in RC parochial schools.
Or else it is a sub-set of the formal &/or informal dogma, rituals and customs of the RC’s.
Certainly it’s a chronic, obsessive/compulsive, HABIT hereon.
Many Jews had peace and joy on the trains to the death camps . . . convinced utterly that they were going to new employment.
Delusions work that way.
UNBIBLICAL delusions are the worst kind.
Many are the most deceptive . . . wrapped in 12 layers of warmed foam rubber, rabbit fur and white hankies.
p.32
.
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
The ONLY dispenser of ALL graces is GOD. Interloping on GOD'S TURF IS BLASPHEMOUSLY ascribing to the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage GOD-QUALITIES, CAPACITIES, POWERS. Hideous. UNBIBLICAL. Damnable.
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
There's not a shred of Biblical support for purgatory--much less Marying assuming the Bosses lead of it. There's certainly not a shred of Biblical support for Mary as Mediatrix. THAT IS CHRIST'S ROLE ALONE--as Scripture clearly asserts, declares quite plainly and unequivocably.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
CHRIST CONQUERED DEATH, HELL AND THE GRAVE--NOT MARY! What outrageous INTERLOPING-ON-CHRIST'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS blasphemy!
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
CHRIST'S BLOOD ALONE prevents assignment to hell. This is more interloping onto God's turf by the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage designed in hell.
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
GOD HAVE MERCY! God's Kingdome comes by HIS POWER, HIS SPIRIT, CHRIST'S BLOOD, HIS ANGELIC FORCES. Mary doesn't have a single thing to do with it. Her asssigned priority motherly task was finished 2000 years ago. Done. Fini. Interloping onto GOD's SOLE TURF to this level is more outrageous blasphemy of the worst depths and degrees.
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
CHRIST ALONE IS THE TREE OF LIFE!
Shoehorning the interloping caricatured pseudo-Mary personage into CHRIST'S ROLE is OUTRAGEOUS BLASPHEMY of the worst order. GOD FORBID!
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
Where's the upchuck bucket. It just gets worse and worse!
Here we have yet MORE of the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage interloping, shoe-horning in to GOD'S EXCLUSIVE TURF--THE MOST EXCLUSIVE TURF--THE TRINITY--HOW DAMNABLE! OUTRAGEOUS TO THE MAX!
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?
Words almost fail me. CHRIST ALONE VANQUISHES SIN.
Mary has NOTHING to do with vanquishing sin in ANY respect! What an outrageous interloper the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage was designed in hell to be.
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!
Scripture is clear: NO ONE IS DRAWN TO GOD SAVE BY HOLY SPIRIT. Here we have the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage bumping Holy Spirit aside to take over the task herself. Blasphemy doesn't get any more outrageous than that! HORRIFIC!
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!
Evidently Roman Catholics et al think Mary's blood is more precious and powerful against sin than CHRIST'S. WHAT AN OUTRAGEOUS LEVEL OF HORRIFIC BLASPHEMY. How DARE ANYONE equate Mary's blood or powers against sin with Christ's! WHAT UNMITIGATED BLASPHEMY!
I shudder to imagine how quick the buckets of stones would have been gathered to terminate such blasphemy 2000 years ago.
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar
No more than the midwife's efforts! Sheesh. What idiocy!
Christ's death on the Cross; His Blood bought Salvation alone has any efficacy against sin at all. Anything else is UNBIBLICAL & UNCHRISTIAN TO THE CORE.
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
Mary couldn't save green stamps, in her current state.
No souls have been entrusted to her care in the least bit of a salvivic sense. This is yet more of the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage interloping, shoehorning into GOD'S TURF. WHAT BRAZEN IDOLATRY!
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
There aren't many levels of blasphemy left beyond that! What clever shoe-horning the caricatured pseudo-Mary personage into THE TRINITY! What an OUTRAGE!. And to defend such on any grounds while pretending to be remotely "Christian," is beyond logic, beyond Scripture, beyond any horse-sensical level of the least bit of a stable mind.
So, if Protestant mentality is “constipated,” as you wrote, that must make Roman Catholic mentality diarrheic, which actually fits in quite well with Isaiah’s comment on the worth of human righteousness before God. (Isaiah 64:6) Your idea of “rich” is to add man-chosen elements that detract from Christ’s completed vicarious atonement and thus from the graciousness of God in sending His own Son to be our Savior. No, I will stick with His poverty alone, for it and it alone makes us rich. (2 Corinthians 8:9)
= =
EXCELLENT.
WELL PUT, INDEED.
THANKS BIG.
This very thread seeks to do just that.
= = =
And 1,000% FAILS AT IT UTTERLY.
INDEED.
EXCELLENT. WELL PUT.
I’ve never construed great mountains of decomposing wood chips to be any degree of wonderful theology.
The RC’s are great at delusional arguments from silence.
How can you have a role model of someone about whom so little is written? Isn't Jesus enough?
Hebrews 12: 1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
CLEARLY JESUS is NOT enough for 10’s of millions of Roman Catholics et al.
Otherwise, they’d devote their prayer time, energies, monies to
CHRIST ALONE.
WHAT BRAZEN SLIPPERINESS.
No, the Vatican doesn't INSIST on it.
It 'merely' rewards it up one side and down the other.
It 'merely' sell's millions of dollars worth of trinkets to facilitate, aid, support, encourage such blasphemy.
It 'merely' publishes endless pages of documents and books supporting, aiding, encouraging, facilitating such blasphemy.
It 'merely' demonstrates such outrageous favor in behalf of such blasphemy by having everyone from the Pope down demonstrate how to do it with great elaboration, . . . once more for the 10 billionth time . . . WITH FEELING . . .
It 'merely' communicates quite effectively that the MOST WITH-IT--THE MOST--KOSHERLY RIGHTEOUS ROMAN CATHOLICS ET AL ARE IMMERSED in such blasphemy from waking to and during sleep . . . while driving . . . and of course . . . while bead fondling.
Where's that upchuck bucket.
Have a good Sabbath.
Incidentally, Catholic Church advises against “servile” work on the Lord’s Day, but things like scripture study and evangelization are encouraged even more. This, too, is a necessary component of the Holy Mass.
One thing Protestant do not understand is that the saints form a communion with us. They are the "we" in Our Father. When we pray, we pray in their company.
Mobving on to your subsequent 237, 239.
you twist and add to His words about the Supper being an enduring testimony and remembrance of His atoning death for us, something that He and He alone has completed for the salvation of mankind, and in so doing transmogrify what is purely sacramental, purely gracious forgiveness, into something altogether different and sacrificial, something that, by its very doing, you contend, adds to an imagined treasury of merits.
What is it that I added and "trannsmogrified"? The "treasure of merits" is a term that is applied to all good works done by Christians for the benefit of salvation of others (Merit). It is not really a part of the Mass per se, although, of course, like I said earlier, it is with the Communion of saints that the Mass is celebrated:
9 ...I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and the ancients, and the four living creatures; and they fell down before the throne upon their faces, and adored God, 12 Saying: Amen. Benediction, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, honour, and power, and strength to our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the ancients answered, and said to me: These that are clothed in white robes, who are they? and whence came they? 14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he, that sitteth on the throne, shall dwell over them.
16 They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, shall rule them, and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(Apoc. 7)
Your idea of “rich” is to add man-chosen elements that detract from Christ’s completed vicarious atonement
It is true that the Chruch is authorized by Christ to choose the precise form of worship as it is generally authorized to "bind and loose" on Earth (Matthew 16:19, 18:18). The essential parts of the Mass are, however, wholly scriptural, as my post 233 explains. If you have a particular question, I will be happy to answer.
(2 Corinthians 8:9)
... urges the same spiritual abundance ("as in all things you abound in faith, and word, and knowledge, and all carefulness; moreover also in your charity towards us, so in this grace also you may abound") in verse 7 that exists in the Catholic worship/ The "poverty of Christ" should not be confused with Protestant philistine artlessness, even less with self-inflicted separation from the Communion of saints in heaven praying for your conversion.
So study. Got a Bible?
I thought the Church was the Bride of Christ?
Jesus is enough for salvation.
The problem I think is that Protestants see Mary and the saints as a hindrance to Jesus, an obscuring of Him.
Catholics see Mary and the saints as a magnification of Him.
Each and every saint and especially Mary never place themselves above Jesus and in all things they have done and said point to Jesus.
They are no different than a beloved and admired friend from church who seems to have such a close relationship.
We try to emulate them, watch them closely to see how and why they have this deep relationship. Or a relative who teaches by example.
It amazes me that Jesus promised not to leave us orphans yet people want to limit that promise to Scripture as if the written word is the end all and be all. Yet, Jesus never commanded anything be written other than the book of Revelations. Millions of people have lived and died without ever being able to read the Bible and yet have known Jesus through the lives of the saints passed down orally. Or by having lived at the same time as them. These holy men and women lived Jesus’ example and show us how we may do so.
They have found Jesus in the prayers of the rosary which is solely focused on His birth, His life, His death and His resurrection. It is meditation on the promises He made to those who believe in Him.
Much has been written about Mary. There were pictures of her painted on the walls of the catacombs, which is where the persecuted Christians met to celebrate their faith when death was the penalty if caught. They speak eloquently of the early church’s regard for the mother of the Lord.
Though there is little in the NT, there is much foreshadowing of her in the OT and a multitude of study about her since.
All three of these are inherently supported by the OT.
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark was never to be touched by human hands so that it was entirely and forever pure in order to hold the Word of God, the Manna from Heaven and the Rod(Wood) used to crush Satan and death.
So, it is not a reach to understand the same must be true of Mary who held not the types of these things from the OT, but the reality of God made Man, Jesus, the Bread of Life, the Incarnation of the Word of God who would lay down His life upon the cross to conquer the death that is the wage of sin.
Mary is assumed, not by her own power but through the desire of her Son. Elijah was also taken up into heaven. And we know from the story of the Transfiguration that Moses and Elijah are together with Jesus in heaven. It is not a reach to believe that Mary has also joined her Son there.
Nothing has been added to Scripture and nothing has been taken from it.
All of these are not by Mary being who Mary is but because Jesus is who Jesus is.
God chose this humble virgin to be the one through whom Jesus came to the world. Fight it all you like, it is His plan and His choice.
Everything about Mary is connected to Jesus, she is the one whom HE chose to bear Him and yet, without her yes, her fiat, her cooperation to participate He would not have come as He did. Mary was not just some broad that God forced Himself on. She is a full participant in Jesus’ mission, sharing in all that He does. Her entire life on earth and now beside Him in heaven is to draw sinners to Him so that they may be saved.
She is His first disciple and everything about her exhorts us to pray, to trust Jesus, to repent. She was the portal of all graces in that she is the bearer of the Good News, Jesus, our savior and the Messiah.
Whatever Jesus asks of her she does. Wherever Jesus asks her to go she goes. And in every deed, every message she calls us to Jesus, to God, to life.
Your opinion of which I heartily disagree.
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