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Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom (Scriptures Agree With Catholic Church)
Scripture Catholic ^ | n/a | John Salza

Posted on 02/24/2010 11:17:16 AM PST by Pyro7480

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To: Above My Pay Grade

I will pray for you.


51 posted on 02/24/2010 2:23:48 PM PST by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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To: P-Marlowe

“So how can one objectively tell the difference between the adoration of Mary and the veneration of Mary? From my point of view they look exactly alike.”

One way to tell the difference could be to ask the people who are doing these things what they are doing. As in asking something like: “Excuse me, but are you worshipping Mary?”

Freegards


52 posted on 02/24/2010 3:06:25 PM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Pyro7480
Mr. Salza reads Sefer HaMelakhim and finds chr*stian Mariology. Unbelievable.

Can he find a six day Creation anywhere, or is the Bible "too ambiguous?"

53 posted on 02/24/2010 3:35:22 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Zakhor 'et 'asher-`asah lekha `Amaleq; baderekh betze'tkhem miMitzrayim.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Pyro7480

Best advice ever given to any human person by another human person:

“Do whatever He tells you.”
-Mary of Nazareth

Enjoyed your last posts about Mary. Beautiful - Thanks. :)


54 posted on 02/24/2010 3:55:50 PM PST by bronxville
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To: Pyro7480
The Angel Gabriel and St. Elizabeth did as much:

If I say Mary is Blessed, I suppose you could say I'm venerating her, but when I kneel before her statue and pray to her, I would have to say that I am worshiping her.

I won't do that. I kneel before God and none else.

Did Gabriel and Elizabeth kneel down at Mary's feet and "venerate" her? Or did they just call her blessed (a term applied to everyone who follows Christ)?

55 posted on 02/24/2010 4:30:54 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pyro7480

DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THE PROTESTANT THAT WAS SHIPWRECKED ON A DESERT ISLAND FOR MANY YEARS. HE WAS FINALLY PICKED UP BY A SHIP. AND HE IS ON THE DECK WITH THE CAPTAIN. THE CAPTAIN LOOKS OUT AT THE ISLAND AND SEES 3 STRUCTURES AND ASKS WHY. THE PROTESTANT SAYS THE 1ST ONE IS MY HOME. THE 2ND IS MY CHURCH AND THE 3RD IS THE CHURCH I USE TO GO TOO. ALWAYS GOING TO AND FRO NEVER COMING TO A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH THAT THE CHURCH CAME 1ST THEN THE COMPLETE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH COUNCIL OF NICEA 300AD’S TO WEED OUT THE 4 DOZEN PHONY “GOSPELS”.


56 posted on 02/24/2010 6:08:11 PM PST by johngrace
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To: Pyro7480

Thanks for posting this — I’d rather discuss with Protestants what we actually DO believe, rather than strawman arguments about what we supposedly believe but are actually things they have been led to think we believe


57 posted on 02/24/2010 7:22:55 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: rface
Mary was the mother of several children If Mary was the mother of several children, then Jesus telling John to look after His mother would have been unconscionable -- it was the eldest son's duty to look after the mother, then the next son, after the sons, the daughters and so on. To give a non-sibling the duty would not have happened. This in addition to the descriptions in the next post (5) put to rest any idea of further siblings from Mary's womb.
58 posted on 02/24/2010 7:26:20 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Above My Pay Grade
"But hey, why let the Scriptures get in the way of a nice bit of heresy and goddess worship?"

Why let the 8th Commandment get in the way of a good smear?

59 posted on 02/24/2010 9:53:56 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: P-Marlowe
"And you guys don’t worship Mary, huh?"

Venerate, yes. Love filially, yes. Offer intercessory prayers to, yes. Worship, no.

60 posted on 02/24/2010 9:59:26 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Venerate, worship, adore...

Six of one a half dozen of the other.

When you bow and kneel and pray you are engaging in worship.

Call it what you want, it is worship. A rose by any other name...


61 posted on 02/24/2010 10:09:58 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
"Seems pretty clear that such behavior is forbidden."

The Catholic Church teaches that the entire body of the word of God must be considered, not any single excerpted phrase or verse. It also teaches that within the Scripture there is a hierarchy in which the Old Testament was preparatory for, and was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. The Letters and Epistles were to teach and clarify the Word, not to expand or add to the Gospel and the highest lever are the actual words of Jesus and the eye witness accounts of the Synoptic Gospels. This is reflected in the three readings of the Mass.

This teaches us two important things:

1) If you can't support your claim from the Synoptic Gospel and reinforce it from the letters of Paul, James or Revelation you probably have it wrong.

2) John of Patmos is seriously misunderstood when taken out of context.

62 posted on 02/24/2010 10:10:23 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: P-Marlowe
"Venerate, worship, adore...

Six of one a half dozen of the other."

That simply proves your English skills are as weak as your understanding of Scripture.

63 posted on 02/24/2010 10:31:23 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
That simply proves your English skills are as weak as your understanding of Scripture.

I didn't insult you, so why did you insist on insulting me? I simply made an observation. I didn't challenge your intelligence or your Enblish skills.

All I know is when you bow down before a statue of a creation, you are engaged in the worship of that creation.

You may disagree with my observation or my conclusion, but it is as valid as your claim that you are not "worshiping" Mary when you treat her as some kind of god. It is an observation. The scripture is clear that you are not to make graven images and bow down to them. Now maybe you believe that particular scripture is not relevant anymore, but I do. God is the same yesterday today and forever.

64 posted on 02/24/2010 11:15:11 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Natural Law
That simply proves your English skills are as weak as your understanding of Scripture.

Main Entry:

worship
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: honoring, glorification

Synonyms:

adoration, adulation, awe, beatification, benediction, chapel, church service, deification, devotion, exaltation, genuflection, glory, homage, honor, idolatry, idolization, invocation, laudation, love, offering, praise, prayer, prostration, regard, respect, reverence, rite, ritual, service, supplication, veneration, vespers

65 posted on 02/24/2010 11:25:22 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
"The scripture is clear that you are not to make graven images and bow down to them."

My comments were valid in that you don't get to define the terms. The Catholic Church agrees that graven images are not to be worshiped, but the definition of a graven image probably disagrees with yours. A graven image is one that is worshiped, not one that represents and serves to help focus the mind on that which it represents. In the he Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim. The Catechism teaches;the Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates.

66 posted on 02/24/2010 11:47:22 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: P-Marlowe

You can post all of the google excerpts you want but the Catholic Church does NOT worship images, Mary or Saints.


67 posted on 02/24/2010 11:51:09 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Telling the truth is not a smear. The worship of Mary is nothing short of idolatry and goddess worship. This is forbidden by the Scriptures, not supported by them, as the original poster twisted the Scriptures to try to prove.


68 posted on 02/25/2010 2:15:21 AM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: P-Marlowe
How do you objectively assess the state or condition of another person's mind? Are you a mind reader?

That said, when the person "praying to" Mary or another saint specifically and explicitly, in the course of said "prayer", requests Mary or the other saint to "Pray for me" or "Pray for us" I suggest that is strong evidence that the person is NOT "adoring" Mary or the other saint.

From my point of view they look exactly alike.

I think that illustrates a flaw in your point of view.

69 posted on 02/25/2010 4:42:28 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: P-Marlowe
When you bow and kneel and pray you are engaging in worship.

Ewe? Ewe is a female sheep ...

Perhaps when you kneel, you're always worshipping ... but worship is an act of the mind. Rather than tell someone what's going on in his mind, it would be better to ask. It would be better still to refrain from calling him a liar if his answer is not what one expects.

70 posted on 02/25/2010 4:47:42 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Pyro7480

“The author above demostrates, using Scripture, that just as the earthly Davidic kingdom had a queen, the eternal Kingdom, which has no end, as Luke 1 states, which is ruled by THE Son of David, has a queen.”

There were concubines in the earthly Davidic kingdom as well. Does that mean there are concubines in the eternal kingdom?


71 posted on 02/25/2010 4:52:45 AM PST by bobjam
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To: P-Marlowe
So why do you bow and kneel before statues of Mary and sing praises to her name?

Why do you conclude that those are acts of "adoration", rather than, say, reverence, respectful love, or merely circumstance. (I've been known to kneel to pray by the side of my bed before. I'm not worshipping my bed.)

72 posted on 02/25/2010 5:07:57 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: ArrogantBustard

Why do you pray to Mary to pray for you? Is God incapable of hearing your prayer?

And if Mary is nothing more than an intermediator between you and God, why all the praise heaped upon her?

Does not the glory for her work belong to God and God alone?


73 posted on 02/25/2010 5:11:37 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
When you bow and kneel and pray you are engaging in worship.

So when I stand up and put my hand over my heart for the national anthem at a football game, isn't that "worship," too?

BTW, the word "worship" is ambiguous. It means "to greatly honor" (in the antique form of the wedding vows, the groom promised to "worship" his wife!)

Theologians call the worship due to God, "latria". We do not offer "latria" to Mary or anyone else except God. From our point of view, bowing to someone or singing a song about them is not necessarily latria. Latria involves offering sacrifice, for one thing.

74 posted on 02/25/2010 5:13:05 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
The scripture is clear that you are not to make graven images and bow down to them

The word in Hebrew means "idols" not "graven images". The KJV got it wrong. The most sacred object in the Hebrew religion, the Ark of the Covenant, had two "graven images" of cherubim on top of it, on God's express orders. And you can bet that the Ark was bowed to, knelt before, carried around in ceremonious fashion, etc.

75 posted on 02/25/2010 5:14:54 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
Why do you pray to Mary to pray for you?

For the same reason I pray to my friends here on Earth to pray for me ... and for the same reason I pray for my friends here when they pray to me.

There are many "models" of the Church ... Family (as in, "dear brother in Christ ...") is often overlooked, but my favourite.

Family look out for each other.

I think the rest of our questions are irrelevant.

76 posted on 02/25/2010 5:21:10 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Campion
So when I stand up and put my hand over my heart for the national anthem at a football game, isn't that "worship," too?

It could be. There are a lot of objects of worship. Football can be an object of worship. Money, a car, a rock star.

What I see objectively in all this Mary worship is the same thing I see in those who worship rock stars or movie stars.

BTW, the word "worship" is ambiguous. It means "to greatly honor" (in the antique form of the wedding vows, the groom promised to "worship" his wife!)

True, it is ambiguous. So why do you recoil when I say it sure looks like you "worship" Mary?

Quite honestly I don't see much difference in the way you "worship" Mary and the way you worship her Son.

When you pray to Mary and your prayer is answered, do you thank God or do you thank Mary?

77 posted on 02/25/2010 5:25:25 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Why do you pray to Mary to pray for you? Is God incapable of hearing your prayer?

Same argument can be made against asking any other Christian to intercede for you, yet we know that's Biblical.

And if Mary is nothing more than an intermediator between you and God, why all the praise heaped upon her?

Saints are a little more than just intercessors, they are also exemplars of heroic virtue and examples of how to lead a Christian life. And the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph are singularly praiseworthy because of their parental love for Our Lord.

Does not the glory for her work belong to God and God alone?

Yes, with a qualification. Like us, she "has nothing she has not received [from God]" (to quote St. Paul). So all her merit is due to God. "God, in crowning the saints, crowns nothing but his own merits" -- St. Augustine.

Remember, though, we are not Calvinists. We think people have the free will to refuse grace, and, with the aid of grace, the free will to accept and cooperate with grace. The glory for Mary's good use of her free will, most particularly her response to the angel, "let it be done to me according to your word", is fittingly God's and hers as well.

Don't confuse honoring God's saints with worshipping a pagan deity. God's saints are his masterpieces. Just as an artist appreciates praise for his work, God appreciates praise offered to his best work.

Pagan deities are either demons-in-disguise or imaginary. Not the same thing at all.

78 posted on 02/25/2010 5:32:50 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
I don't see much difference in the way you "worship" Mary and the way you worship her Son

We have Mary sacrificed at Mass?

79 posted on 02/25/2010 5:37:21 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Campion
Same argument can be made against asking any other Christian to intercede for you, yet we know that's Biblical.

I don't get down on my knees, prostrate myself and sing a bunch of praises to my friends before I ask them for their prayers. If they are my friends, they are my friends, not my superiors, they are sinners like myself saved by the grace of God and the glory for any work they do on my behalf belongs to God.

I don't spend hours upon hours day after day saying "Hail Frank, the Lord is with thee..." before and after I make my prayer request known.

I just make the prayer request and if it gets answered, then I praise God.

80 posted on 02/25/2010 5:39:47 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: annalex
We have Mary sacrificed at Mass?

The sacrifice took place 2000 years ago.

81 posted on 02/25/2010 5:40:39 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Quite honestly I don't see much difference in the way you "worship" Mary and the way you worship her Son.

I think you're looking at superficialities, then.

We offer sacrifice to Trinity.

We offer praise to Mary, which is sometimes pretty ordinary and Biblical (the Hail Mary) and sometimes a bit more sappy and fulsome (the Salve Regina).

Compare the Te Deum sometime with the Marian prayer of your choice.

82 posted on 02/25/2010 5:40:48 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
The sacrifice took place 2000 years ago.

Yes, it did. That you (I assume) wrongly believe it ended 2000 years ago is irrelevant to the argument at hand though, because we don't believe that.

Therefore, according to our system of belief, we worship God by offering sacrifice. We honor Mary, but we do not offer sacrifices to her.

83 posted on 02/25/2010 5:43:20 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
The sacrifice took place 2000 years ago.

Yep ... and that one Sacrifice for all times and places is made present (praise God) at every Mass/Liturgy, every day, all over the world.

84 posted on 02/25/2010 5:43:51 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Campion
We honor Mary, but we do not offer sacrifices to her.

When you leave confession and the priest tells you that to atone for your sins you have to say 500 Hail Mary's, what is that, if it is not a sacrifice to Mary?

85 posted on 02/25/2010 5:45:33 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
I don't get down on my knees, prostrate myself and sing a bunch of praises to my friends before I ask them for their prayers.

Again, then the issue is not "why ask Mary to pray for you, why not ask God directly," is it? You have no problem asking "Frank" to pray for you, you only have a problem with the way Catholics ask Mary to pray for them.

(This is, BTW, a big improvement over the usual argument that is made, which is that Mary is "dead" and Frank isn't, as though saints in heaven were somehow less able to pray for us than Christian believers on earth!)

If they are my friends, they are my friends, not my superiors, they are sinners like myself saved by the grace of God and the glory for any work they do on my behalf belongs to God

But, if your prayer request were answered, there wouldn't be anything wrong with thanking Frank as well, would there? (And you should of course thank God first, as in anything else.)

If they are my friends, they are my friends, not my superiors

I think this is really the nub of the issue, though it's often hard to get Protestants to admit it. See, we absolutely do see the saints in heaven as our superiors. They aren't superior by nature (as God is); they are superior by achievement and history.

That is to say, God is superior to us -- first of all -- because he is God.

The saints in heaven are superior to us because they have run the race and won the prize, to use Pauline terminology. (Of course they are still infinitely inferior to God by nature, though they partake of his nature and have a share in his glory.)

The (good) angels are superior to us (arguably by nature), but inferior to God (by nature, certainly), and inferior to the saints in heaven (we know this through revelation: we will judge the angels).

We here on earth, are "for a little while lower than the angels". So, yes, we do see a hierarchy, and I think the Bible establishes that pretty clearly.

86 posted on 02/25/2010 5:55:20 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe
When you leave confession and the priest tells you that to atone for your sins you have to say 500 Hail Mary's, what is that, if it is not a sacrifice to Mary?

If quoting Scripture and asking a Christian to pray for me is "offering sacrifice" to someone other than God, we're all in a heap of trouble.

87 posted on 02/25/2010 5:57:15 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: P-Marlowe

I am not asking you what you think about the Mass. I am asking you to correct the demonstrably wrong statement that there is no difference between the Catholic worship of God, which is the Holy Mass, and Catholic veneration of Mary, which is not.


88 posted on 02/25/2010 5:57:23 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Campion
See, we absolutely do see the saints in heaven as our superiors. They aren't superior by nature (as God is); they are superior by achievement and history.

Tell me, the widow who gave her mite... Do you pray to her?

What about the countless believers who have gone through life unnoticed for the work that God did, do you pray to them, or is your list limited to those that some Magisterium has declared are worthy of your prayers? Are those people accounted for on your rosary? Do you have beads to represent them?

89 posted on 02/25/2010 6:02:12 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Are those people accounted for on your rosary? Do you have beads to represent them?

Would you please tell us, in your own words, what you think praying the Rosary entails?

90 posted on 02/25/2010 7:06:10 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Cronos
then Jesus telling John to look after His mother would have been unconscionable........

unless his sibling were not yet believers.....plus - I don't find it "unconcionable" - and I imaginge that there is presedence - AND Jesus did many things that were even more "unconscionable" ..... that is why so many of the Jewish leaders wanted to KILL him

91 posted on 02/25/2010 7:39:45 AM PST by rface
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To: Above My Pay Grade
"Telling the truth is not a smear. The worship of Mary is nothing short of idolatry and goddess worship."

If you claim to know and understand the Catholic dogma you should have no problem pointing out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it Mary worship and idolatry is endorsed. I can hardly wait for your answer because in 50 years of reading it I have been unable to find it.

92 posted on 02/25/2010 7:45:03 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: P-Marlowe
"When you leave confession and the priest tells you that to atone for your sins you have to say 500 Hail Mary's, what is that, if it is not a sacrifice to Mary?"

It is reciting Scripture:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."

93 posted on 02/25/2010 7:49:41 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm

While the RCC might CLAIM it is not “worship”, that is irrelevant. When you bow down to statues, pray to them (or the being they represent), bring offernings (such as flowers) to them and adore them, you are worshipping them.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....


94 posted on 02/25/2010 7:54:38 AM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: Natural Law
It is reciting Scripture:

Why don't you recite Leviticus?

Frankly if you need to atone for sins by making some sacrifice in reading scripture, I would think that having to recite a few chapters of Leviticus would go a long way further towards making a person think twice about repeating a sin than having to recite a few hundred Hail Marys.

Tell me, as a penance after confession, have you ever been asked to recite a chapter or two from Leviticus?

If so, have you ever repeated THAT sin?

95 posted on 02/25/2010 8:07:30 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Above My Pay Grade
"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...."

Did you come on to this thread to learn or clarify what you already believe to be true about Catholicism or are you just here to spout falsehoods and display your ignorance? If you have never read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, never read any of the Encyclicals, or actually consulted with Catholic Clergy on issues of dogma then you have no legitimate basis for comment or opinion other than to say "it appears as though". To state anything definitively from a position of shear ignorance based upon voyeur like observations is ludicrous.

96 posted on 02/25/2010 9:23:25 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: P-Marlowe
"Why don't you recite Leviticus?"

We study and incorporate the lessons of Levciticus into our worship, but the Old Testament only a prepratory test for the coming of Jesus and was fulfilled by His death and resurrection.

Catholic worship and prayer is concentrated on a new 10 commandments as enumerated by Christ Himself. These are the two greatest commandments He gave us and the eight Beatitudes.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Jesus added a second command, that we must love our neighbor as ourself.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

97 posted on 02/25/2010 9:40:15 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Are you just avoiding answering the question or are you content to just change the subject?


98 posted on 02/25/2010 9:46:26 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
"Are you just avoiding answering the question or are you content to just change the subject?"

I answered your question, you are avoiding the answer.

99 posted on 02/25/2010 10:22:30 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
I answered your question, you are avoiding the answer.

The question had to do with penance.

Why are you told by the priest to say Hail Mary's (which you claim are just rote recitation of scriptural phrases) as a penance rather than reciting obscure passages of scripture? What sort of magic does a Hail Mary do that a "And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings" will not likewise do?

If the Hail Mary is not some kind of adoration or worship or veneration of Mary and is just scripture recitation (like you implied), then why as a penance are not other, more obscure and more difficult passages ordered recited for penance?

100 posted on 02/25/2010 10:31:58 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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