Posted on 03/12/2010 6:50:06 PM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman
Cronos wrote:
“you do, of course, realise that the “scripture” St. Paul was referring to was the Septuagint?”
Did Paul tell you that? I do not find that in the text of 2 Timothy. Was Paul unable to read Hebrew? Did the Hebrew Scriptures not already exist in the temple archive, thus adjudged already as the word of God, as any decently careful reading, for example, of 1 and 2 Maccabees will bear out clearly? Did the Greek translation of Aquila not also exist? And did not also others? You make assumptions that are, at the very best, doubtful.
As to whether the statement of 2 Timothy 3:16 excludes entirely any already existent NT is a matter requiring considerably more effort than you have made. It is, in fact, very likely that it does not exclude such, and even if it did would not preclude the soon to be added books from inclusion in the same doctrinal application. And as to the oft plainted old saw that the Catholic church determined what was Scripture and what was not, well, that which God gave the apostles and before them the prophets by divine inspiration was Holy Scripture from the moment it was written, whether the Catholic church recognized it to be or not. The determiner here is God. The poor, johnny-come-lately, slow-on-the-uptake realizer is man.
There is nothing in I Thess 5:9 to indicate a pretribulation rapture. There is nothing in Revelation 3:10 to indicate a pretribulation rapture. There is no teaching anywhere in the New Testament that indicates that believers are to be whisked out of the world for deliverance from tribulations or troubles or anything of the sort.
Isn't it quite amazing, the vast numbers of Evangelical pastors and teachers and professors and scholars who disagree with you, then... :-)
One would wonder how that could ever be, with absolutely nothing to show for it in the Bible... LOL ...
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.nor Revelation 3:10
To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The Evangelical pastors and teachers and professors and scholars who say there is NO pretribulation rapture are correct.
LOL... isn't that amazing that you would come up with such a statement... :-)
I always find it quite amusing how some say "there's no such thing to be found anywhere in the Bible" -- when so many Christians find exactly that very thing...
Have you tried jumping up and down, and stomping your feet... you might get a few more people to believe you... :-)
It is...I don’t have TV though so there’s no worry there.
It is...I don’t have TV though so there’s no worry there.
The Internet is worse than TV ... :-)
Well that depends on how it’s used though. Right? :)
Sure... as is the same for TV... :-)
1. Primarily, yes, Paul was referring to the OT Scriptures.
2. Paul didn’t “most likely” read Hebrew. He for sure did. His teacher was Gamaliel, and the language of his instruction would have been Hebrew. His referring to himself as “a Hebrew of the Hebrews,” (Philippians 3:5) almost certainly means this, since he had already identified himself ethnically in the immediately preceding words. I wouldn’t be so quick also to assume that, although the common language of the people was Aramaic, Hebrew was little known and not understood. Among “church goin’ folk” I would assume it was quite well understood. As an aside, I also wouldn’t be so quick, as some are, to assert that Jesus’ disciples didn’t know Greek, and thus had to have written their gospels in Aramaic. Multilingualism in a given population is a very old and very common phenomenon ... except, it would seem, in the USA.
3. That is not how it came across.
4. On this we are in basic agreement. However, it should be noted that there is already pretty clear recognition of NT Scriptures in certain places in other, later NT Scriptures, which I take to be far more authoritative indication of what is canonical Scripture than any earthly one.
So, if we are in or after the millennium, why are church members still teaching one another?
I certainly agree with you on that...Jesus went up and He's coming back down...We're to look for that blessed hope and be ready...
Nope, I was wrong. It appears that the sheep/goat judgment in Matt 25 happens right after the tribulation.
The Luke 18:8 reference is to point out that Jesus implied (rhetorically) that there would be no faith on earth when He returned.
Star Traveler:
I don’t think the tribulation begins immediately after the antichrist is revealed. There may may be weeks or months or even YEARS between the fulfillment of 2 Thess 2:3 and the tribulation. We simply don’t know and aren’t told.
It seems we are told two things in 2 Thess 2:3:
1. Apostasy first
2. The antichrist is revealed
After THOSE two things...the rapture can happen at any second.
But the tribulation might not happen for a long time. It MAY begin immediately, but we simply don’t know.
Again, there is no definitive timeline between the rapture and the tribulation.
The ‘revealing’ of the antichrist is simply that: revealing.
It may just mean that Christians will ‘note’ the antichrist, while the rest of the world won’t even notice.
Well, jumping into the first 'bridal' carriage that shows upon this earth is NOT the ticket into the one that we are to 'wait' for. There is going to be a 'fake' wedding first. That is the tribulation, not of flesh and blood war but a spiritual war.
The more people talk about the Second Coming, the more I think that Christians will fall for the first thing that looks like it.
Well Christ said I have foretold you all things. And these things need be. The majority of my relatives (I love them they are my family) are all 'Christian' liberals and voted for BamBamKennedy. And they hated with a passion all things President Bush. And the non-Catholics fully expect to escape the tribulation, but they take pure delight in seeing the so called 'rich' Republicans get theirs invoking the image of WWJD.
The majority Catholic in-laws (I love them they are my family) vote liberal democrat because the doctrine of liberals has the godly good sound. And America owes BamBamKennedy a chance to do his thing. They are really into this being quilted and quilting others as course of their lives.
So of course I am the odd bird to both denominations, because can't I see that BamBamKennedy is just trying to be 'fair' to everybody that Republicans used and abused.
Now interestingly my liberal and conservative 'baptist' friends and relatives have their bags packed, reservations made and are waiting for the first flight out of here. And they all think the tribulation is to be blood and gore (no pun intended) to the horses bridles. And they as the 'church' are going to escape this mayhem and blood letting... but I will continue to plant seeds of truth if it be possible they awake before the fake shows up first.
That is true... Then we have nothing in common... We do neither.
I love Zola..He has one of the best monthly news letters! He was totally an avocate for israel, dispensationalism, pre trib and was non replacement theology to the core... just as I am.
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