Posted on 03/13/2010 1:24:38 PM PST by NYer
AMEN! Thank you!
Matthew Chapter 5 - 16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. 17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
All of Matthew Chapter 25, but especially - 31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
What we do in the flesh counts. We are put on this earth to serve, not all in the same way.
OpusatFR floods us with all these scriptural proofs of people being baptized. Good scriptures, however, they weren’t being sprinkled or poured, they were “baptized.” The very word means immersed. He cites quite a few verses where their baptism was a “burial.” This is what immersion is, a burial – in water.
OpusatFR would have us believe all these people being baptized in Bible days were Roman Catholics. Hardly. The evolution of all these sprinkled (not truly baptized) pagans, calling themselves Christians, into the Papacy lay centuries in the future.
And then I guess he would have us believe all these people being baptized in Bible days, also worshipped Mary, did the Rosary, along with all the other non-Biblical trappings that became part of the Papacy centuries later. Quite preposterous actually.
I am Catholic and I can humbly state and testify: that I have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my Personal Saviour and when my time comes, all that I ask of him is to forgive me and walk me to heaven.
I failed to mention the brutality of the Roman Church. I correct my last paragraph accordingly:
And then I guess he would have us believe all these people being baptized in Bible days, also worshipped Mary, did the Rosary, PERSECUTING ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS WHO DID NOT AGREE WITH THEM, HAVING THOUSANDS BURNED AT THE STAKE, ETC. Along with all the other non-Biblical trappings that became part of the Papacy centuries later. Quite preposterous actually.
Define saved.
If Christ would tell us to leave others alone, then He would NOT have given the command to go ye into the world and preach the gospel, would he? However, there is a delicate balance, and that being one must be led by the Holy Spirit to those who are ready to accept Jesus as their personal savior. It isn’t by baptism, ritual or other sacraments that one becomes born again, or from above. IT is the Spirit of God who convicts of sin and leads one to a personal knowledge and acceptance of what JEsus did on the Cross.
Being baptized does not save anyone. It is an outward evidence of an inward work. WE are immersed (baptised) into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There isn’t any evidence in the Bible that those who accepted Christ were sprinkled. They were dunked under the water. Nor, is there any evidence that babies were sprinkled.
If people would pray and seek the Lord in spiritual matters, they wouldn’t accept heresies and false doctrines. But, alas, many, and that includes many Protestant churches would rather fall on their traditional swords than accept the truth. By the way, Jesus said, “I Am the way, the TRUTH, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” So, if anyone is trying to get to heaven by any other means than accepting Jesus’s work on Calvary, they are laboring in vain.
Which proves that you are attempting to please God with your good works. What a shame that you don’t understand that you can have a sureness of where your soul will spend eternity.
I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the fact that all your so-called rightenousness is as filthy rags in his sight. He desires an intimate relationship with each and every one of us, not just good works, for works cannot save your eternal soul.
The only difficulty I have is with your statement regarding infants and young children. Having been a Sunday school teacher, I can tell you, at a certain age, most children can CHOOSE to follow Jesus.
However, there is NO SCRIPTURE to support the theory that child “baptism” means - the child is born again. Baptism is an outword symbol of an inward change in the heart. Once a person chooses to follow Jesus, Baptism is just a way to outwardly show the commitment to your decision.
To be born again, it takes a CHOICE OF YOUR FREE WILL. While God gave to man the ability to choose, that “choice making” can only be done when you understand right and wrong. A baby cannot do that.
As for whether or not Catholics can be born again .. I don’t see why people are even questioning that. The point I’m making is that God does not see whether you’re Catholic or Methodist or Baptist or otherwise; God see you as HIS (through Jesus), or not HIS (because you have not chosen to follow Jesus).
Being born again has nothing whatsoever to do with what denomination you belong to, or what church you attend. Being born again is accomplished by CHOOSING Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Romans 10:9-10 gives us the model to follow:
“9) ... If you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him [Jesus] from the dead, you will be saved.
10) For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [this] salvation. Amp.
If you continue reading verses 11-17, you come to this scripture:
17) So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).
A lot of Bible translations say, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”. But if you move the comma from the first “hearing” to the second “hearing” - you wind up with the true statement: “Faith comes by hearing and hearing, by the Word of God”. Meaning that just hearing a scripture once is not enough. To keep your faith in Jesus alive, you need to be hearing and hearing the Word of God.
If people are confused about this, it usually means that it’s not being taught at the church where they attend. That’s very sad.
Remember this important thing: The most important gift God gave to man (humans) was the ability to CHOOSE. It’s one of the most important gifts, because it allows you to choose to follow Jesus and to serve God.
Herein lies your lack of understanding. You really should check out what refiner’s fire means. It has nothing to do with purgatory. Sigh, how sad that so many who are sincere in their Catholic teachings, are sincerely wrong.
It also means they are not praying or reading the Word for themselves. One shouldn’t depend upon any one else to spoon feed them, but, rather to seek out the scriptures as did the Bereans, to determine if those things being taught are scriptural.
This appears to be another case of Protestants, rather Evangelicals either forgetting, ignoring, or being ignorant of their roots. The evangelical movement didn’t just spring out of the ground, but has its historical nexus in the Ancient Church, like it or not. The 16th century Reformation was not the sudden rediscovery of Christianity, as if it had been in hiding or dead for 1500 years. Christ promised he would never abandon the Church and that hell would not prevail against it. All Christians share a common shame in the evil and ignorant behavior that we’ve done to others ostensibly in Christ’s name throughout history. This isn’t a Catholic issue, it’s a Christian issue. Romaphobia helps no one. In many ways the RC church is not the same today as it was in the 16th century, as the Protestant church (in all it’s 1000s of forms) is not the same either. The water has moved under the bridge. Can we also not get past this and focus on what unites us and not what divides us?
“The evangelical movement didn’t just spring out of the ground, but has its historical nexus in the Ancient Church”
...meaning it exists in its current form as a result of its roots in the Apostolic age, via the RC church, the Protestant movement, and so on. We all worship the same Lord.
Excellent post!
Preliminary statement: Faith in Christ saves, period. However, that said, faith is given by purely by grace. Baptism leads us to faith, that is its purpose. It is God’s work. But faith, if it is true, God-given brings forth the fruits of faith. That, in a nutshell, is scriptural teaching.
Catsrus wrote:
“Being baptized does not save anyone.”
1 Peter 3:21 says otherwise.
Also:
“It is an outward evidence of an inward work.”
Where does the Bible say that?
Also:
“WE are immersed (baptised) into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There isn’t any evidence in the Bible that those who accepted Christ were sprinkled. They were dunked under the water.”
The matter is nowhere near as cut and dried as you imagine. We can get into it if you really want to. In so saying, I will readily admit that the preference was from the beginning for immersion, because of the symbolism of Romans 6. But the early church never insisted on immersion or else it was no baptism, and this because they knew (knowing Greek usage a little better than we) the boundaries of the meaning of “baptizo,” to baptize (or, if you want to get really technical, “I baptize”).
Also:
“Nor, is there any evidence that babies were sprinkled.” I am assuming here that you are seeking to invalidate infant baptism. And so reply, that too is not true. I could cite the fact that the Book of Acts refers to the baptism of whole households, in which were probably children, in the case of Cornelius and of the Philippian jailor. Similarly, it is reported that “Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan” (Matthew 3:5) came to John to be baptized. That is pretty inclusive language. In observing this, it should also be noted that Israel was quite used to bringing 8-day-olds to be circumcised. But better than that is that in the Great Commission the apostles are commanded to make disciples of all the nations. That being the plain and universal command, the burden of proof falls on him who insists that “all the nations” doesn’t mean children also. Before you you take off with various presumed proof texts (of which there are none conclusive), consider that the identical phrase “all the nations” is used by the very same author, Matthew, for those who will stand before Christ on the Day of Judgment. (Matthew 25:32) Does all the nations there mean, “all, except children”? Scripture interprets Scripture. Matthew is the best commentary on Matthew.
Better than simply putting forth standard denominational talking points is to examine carefully the language of the Holy Scriptures, and let it decide what is true and what is not.
I take issue with what you say here...and I am not RCC:
“Baptism is an outword symbol of an inward change in the heart. Once a person chooses to follow Jesus, Baptism is just a way to outwardly show the commitment to your decision.”
It means far more than an outward show that one has made a decision for Christ. Believing the gospel and making a decision for Christ is essential, but Baptism is not some sort of an attached addendum to the gospel. It is part of it - the meaning of which is actually becoming one with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.
If you care to follow me on this, I can provide the scriptures that support identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection as an essential part of salvation.
In dealing with Cyberant’s point, I also dealt with your point. See my post 119.
I.e., baptism being an identification with Christ’s death and burial, it can hardly mean sprinkling. When Christ was taken down from the cross, was he sprinkled? Or was he actually BURIED?
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