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To: kosta50
No we don't. [have a choice to value something other than that which gives us pleasure.]

Cannot choose to? I believe you said earlier you could. In any case, it's obvious we can. You could illustrate that for yourself at any time. I think your in a determinist or robotic argument here. You can choose otherwise - you can argue you don't, but not that you can't.

We value everything and anything that gives us pleasure…

Didn't say we don't, just that we can choose something else over pleasure.

What makes us different and unique among animals is that we can actually sometimes create our choices.

Yep, and have values in addition to "feels good."

All these things are valued by different people because they give them a "feel good"

I think you're trying to define everything else away, as in "if you value it it feels good, therefore all values reduce to feel good." Both clauses are not logically proven so you can't hold your premise or additional conclusions are true statements.

In addition, you make a reductionistic error. E.g., that all organisms can be reduced to atoms, doesn't mean everything knowable about them can be known by their atomic properties.

What makes us human is the language.

Not responsive to the question of what makes us different in terms of this discussion. As far as this goes, you've not given any difference in terms of values, goals, choices involved.

319 posted on 04/27/2010 9:34:01 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
We recognize other values (feels bad, indifferent), but we are drawn to those that correspond to "feels good."

And, yes, we can, under circumstances, choose that which doesn't feel good. So can animals. Cornered by fire, animals will opt for an act of desperation they would otherwise never choose.

Your straw man is getting bigger and bigger.

I think you're trying to define everything else away, as in "if you value it it feels good, therefore all values reduce to feel good."

Everything we choose on our own (not coerced) is a "feels good." Oftentimes, that which feels good is an ideal rather than something real; ideals usually established by the society tom which we belong. In multicultural societies, these ideals vary across each subculture, as well as time.

Consider, for example, the value of female virginity and how that changed. Is that even an issue in western societies anymore, regardless be they predominantly Protestant or Catholic? But at one time a girl had to make sure she either retained it or somehow faked it if she had any hopes of ever getting married.

Otherwise she was considered "damaged goods" that one couldn't even give away. Obviously the society and individuals believed there was something "good," even essential about virginity. After all, the highest Christian saint is best known for it.

[What makes us human is the language] Not responsive to the question of what makes us different in terms of this discussion

Nonsense. That is one single factor that distinguishes human beings anatomically, biologically, and socially form other animals.

322 posted on 04/28/2010 1:16:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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