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To: WorldviewDad

The “no death before Adam” argument is an example of picking and choosing certain verses, or parts of verses,, here’s why:

From “Is The Truth Out There?” See also Mark S. Whorton,’s “Peril in Paradise”

The...claim that death did not enter the world until after man sinned (known as the fall of man). Hence, the billions of years of “death, struggle, disease and bloodshed” could not have happened. The death of animals, and especially people, is an obviously emotional occurrence. One will notice in young-earth writings on this subject that they tend to spend more time on the emotion rather than proving their theory. People get caught up in the emotion and do not bother to stop and ask, “Wait a second, is this true or am I letting emotion get the better of me?” Indeed, the whole argument is contingent on whether or not sin brought death into the world. Another important part of the debate would determine if death is inherently evil to begin with.

First, the Bible does not state that sin entered the world with Adam. Most seem to forget about Satan. When Satan and his minions rebelled against God, sin entered creation. Sin existed long before Adam arrived on the scene. This fact is bypassed on the way to quoting Romans 5:12.1 Often the “…and death [came] through sin…” part is held up without acknowledging the qualifying statement that follows it: “…in this way death came to all men…” The verse specifically relates man’s sin to causing man’s death, not all other death in nature. In other words, man’s death was the result of his own choice and the Bible does not indicate that his sin caused all other death at that same moment. Since sin and evil existed before Adam, is that why the processes of death and decay existed before man’s creation? If that was the cause, then we have yet another support for death before Adam. But as we will soon see, death is not inherently evil, so sin or its evil purveyors could not be the sole cause (if they were a cause). In any case, since this physical death existed before Adam, then there is a good chance that the death described in Romans 5:12 refers to spiritual death.

At the very least, man must have died a spiritual death. Sin changed their lives and separated them from God. Christ came to die for humans to end this separation. Mankind’s separation was spiritual, so a spiritual being had to end it. Both Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:21 tell us specifically to who death came and why. Animals can be affected by our sin, but they cannot sin so there is no reason to believe that their natural death is caused by man’s sin.

It’s also important to point out that not all suffering the result of sin. Job was called “blameless” (Job 1:8) yet he experienced suffering that would eventually vindicate God’s purposes. Jesus suffered the crucifixion, yet he was without sin. Suffering has a place in the “good” creation once one sees it from God’s perspective: Suffering is temporary and part of his “...plan to address rebellion in the heavens, do away with evil for eternity, [and] demonstrate His glory for all eternity to all of creation...2”


55 posted on 04/11/2010 5:09:06 PM PDT by truthfinder9
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To: truthfinder9

Your author needs to spend a little time with the book of Romans.

All of God’s Creatures suffered the fate of death through the actions of the first Adam, and look forward to the glorious liberty of the Sons of God as they are capable in measure.


56 posted on 04/11/2010 5:17:41 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: truthfinder9
So stating the actual scriptures is now an “obviously emotional occurrence”...interesting.

I also see that you make the claim that sin was in the world prior to Adam without ever giving any scriptural support for this idea. You know for a fact when satan rebelled and that it was before Adam...without scriptural support this sounds more like an “emotional occurrence” to me.
I would suggest that you read Ezekiel 28 it appears that satan was still an angel in the garden of Eden...

Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and diamonds, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw EVERY THING that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I would understand these scriptures as telling me that God created every thing (including the angels) and as of day six every thing was very good...do you think that God would think of sin as very good? Not buying that one.

Even the scriptures that you do mention support the idea of death from Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

These two scriptures are either correct or are a lie...I will hold to them as being the truth and thus being correct so yes “by one man sin entered into the world”.

It would appear to me that scripture is being twisted to try and fit the billions of years into it, thus putting man's ideas over God's word. I will put my faith and trust in God and His word instead of man...if this is your emotional “straw man” so be it.

61 posted on 04/11/2010 7:22:03 PM PDT by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
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