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Card. Castrillon-Hoyos Out At Latin Mass - Breaking
cmr ^ | April 21, 2010

Posted on 04/21/2010 9:56:09 AM PDT by NYer

The Traditional Latin Mass planned for April 24th honoring Pope Benedict on his five-year anniversary was scheduled to have Cardinal Dario Castrillon-Hoyos as the celebrant. Not any more.

As you probably know, a significant controversy has erupted over a letter sent by the Cardinal expressing gratitude to a Bishop for not turning over a sexually offending priest to civil authorities. The hue and cry that has erupted from this revelation is significant. As a result, the Cardinal is out as the celebrant at the planned Traditional Latin Mass for the 24th of April.

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- In consultation with His Eminence, Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, The Paulus Institute has agreed to seek another celebrant for the Pontifical Solemn High Mass taking place on April 24th. This action will help maintain the solemnity, reverence and beauty of the Mass.

The Paulus Institute was formed for the propagation of sacred liturgy. The Traditional Latin Mass planned for April 24th honoring Pope Benedict on his five-year inauguration anniversary is a liturgical event much bigger than the individual celebrant. Cardinal Castrillon was approached to celebrate the Mass early in what has been a three-year effort because of his special experience in celebrating this form of Mass and his efforts under Pope John-Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI in encouraging the traditional form of the Mass, full liturgy and sacraments.

We are in the process of seeking another Bishop to celebrate a Pontifical Solemn Mass on Saturday and are confident that one will agree. However, in any event, a beautiful, dignified Traditional Latin Mass will be celebrated at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on Saturday at 1PM and will be the first time in nearly a half century this has occurred. All Catholic faithful are encouraged to attend.

The Paulus Institute regards all sexual abuse as tragic and a heinous sin and supports Pope Benedict's fight to rid this disease from the Church. It stands on the side of every victim of clerical sexual abuse and earnestly desires to bind up the wounds done to their human dignity, to vindicate their civil and canonical rights, and to help them in the restoration in Christ of all they have lost.

To that end, The Paulus Institute supports the directives by the Supreme Roman Pontiff and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that all bishops should report crimes of sexual abuse to the police in accordance with the requirements of civil law. However, the Paulus Institute is not competent, nor does it have the facts, to form an opinion about the about recent media reports concerning Cardinal Castrillon.

The Paulus Institute requests respect for the human dignity and civil rights of all who participate in this sacred liturgy and observance for the tranquility and good order of the celebration.
This is probably a wise move for both the Cardinal and those involved with the traditional mass. This would be bad PR for everybody involved, The Pope, the Cardinal, and the TLM community.

Thanks to David L Alexander for the info!


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latinmass; mass; tlm; traditionalmass
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1 posted on 04/21/2010 9:56:09 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 04/21/2010 9:56:22 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

Good move.


3 posted on 04/21/2010 9:58:31 AM PDT by DarthVader (That which supports Barack Hussein Obama must be sterilized and there are NO exceptions!)
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To: NYer
I'm glad they are still planning to have it as I have airline tickets and am leaving Friday for Washington, DC.
4 posted on 04/21/2010 9:59:46 AM PDT by k omalley (Caro Enim Mea, Vere est Cibus, et Sanguis Meus, Vere est Potus)
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To: NYer; Pyro7480
Card. Castrillon praised that French bishop. Why? Something missing from the reporting?
CATEGORY: Clerical Sexual Abuse of Children, The Drill — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 10:30 am

Something has been bothering me in the now viral news story about the letter His Eminence Dario Card. Castrillon Hoyos wrote to the French Bishop Pierre Pican.

You know the facts of the situation.

A French priest Fr. Rene Bissey was a child abuser.  The Bishop of Bayeux-Lisieux learned about this in 1996.  The Vicar General apparently knew about this from a victim’s mother.  At first they had the priest in some neutral assignment and then later gave him a parish.  Fr. Bissey was arrested in 1999, convicted and sentenced to 18 years in prison.  Bishop Pican was also put on trial for seemingly covering up the crimes.  This is also important because this is the first time since the Revolution that a French bishop has been before a civil tribunal.  Bp. Pican was sentenced to three months in prison.

On March 30 the French website Golias published a 2001 letter from Card. Castrillon, then Prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, to Bishop Pican in which the Cardinal wrote:

I congratulate you for not denouncing a priest to the civil administration. You have acted well and I am pleased to have a colleague in the episcopate who, in the eyes of history and of all other bishops in the world, preferred prison to denouncing his son and priest.

The Holy See pretty much threw Card. Castrillon under the bus for that.  Then last week during a conference in Murcia, Spain, Card. Castrillon said that his 2001 letter to Bp. Pican was authorized by late Pope John Paul II and the Cardinal praised Bishop Pican as a model for all bishops because he would not denounce the priest.

This certainly looks very bad.  The mainstream press and even the Holy See seems to be piling on.

But I kept scratching my head over the case, because something just didn’t seem right.

First, Card. Castrillon was the Prefect for Clergy not for Bishops.  I couldn’t get my head around how someone like Card. Castrillon would go so far as to write to that bishop and praise that bishop – who preferred to go to jail rather than denounce a priest who had really committed such terrible crimes.  Was the Cardinal merely being a zealous advocate in favor of priests because he was Prefect for Clergy?   

I had the nagging sense that some element missing. 

Now I read in Columbia Passport:

According to La Verdad, a regional Spaniard journal, the French bishop did not denounce the priest because he knew it by the first instance under the Sacrament of Confession. According to the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, a priest cannot denounce the matter that is given to him under the gravity of Confession. It includes crimes.

If the bishop was held to silence under the Seal, that could explain how he didn’t think he was able to denounce Fr. Bessey to civil authorities and later gave him an assignment. 

When a priest or bishop is bound by the Seal he cannot reveal the contents of the confession to anyone by either word or action. He cannot act on the content of the confession.  If there was nothing else apparent and known openly in Fr. Bessey’s record that would argue against his receiving an assignment, to refuse to give him an assignment would have raised questions about why, whether there was something wrong with him that people didn’t know about.  It could have been perceived as a moral dilemma for the bishop.

It strikes me that this could in some way explain why Card. Castrillon would have penned such a letter.  Furthermore, knowing that the issue was complex, he sought the advice of the Pope before sending it.  At issue was a defense of the Seal of confession.  The French bishop was not being praised for protecting a priest, a criminal priest, but rather for upholding the Seal of confession.

I muse about this because hitherto I had not seen in news stories on this issue any mention that the French bishop had first learned of the priest’s criminal behavior under the Seal of confession.

Questions remain.

If the Vicar General knew, and told the bishop, then the bishop had an independent source of information.  Even in the case it is under normal circumstances still better for priests not to act on the content of a confession, but this was not a normal circumstance.

Why did the bishop consent to hear the confession of one of his priests?  This is a perfect example of why a superior should not receive the confessions of those immediately under his authority: the superior runs the risk of having his hands bound and not being able to act.

The bishop also could have found some other assignment than a parish for the priest, but that would not have solved the problem of having in the ranks of the presbyterate a criminal child molester.

In any event, perhaps I had merely missed the mention of the Seal in earlier reporting – in fact I haven’t followed this too closely because of other work.  Maybe some of you saw it earlier.

But I think it is an important dimension to this story which needs to be clarified.

Discussion of the "boundaries" of the Seal comes into play.

UPDATE 1607 GMT:

I found a Washington Post story here which mentions the issue of confession.

COMMENTS (4)
• • • • • •

5 posted on 04/21/2010 10:07:14 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: k omalley

It should be a beautiful and memorable liturgy. Please share it with all of us when you return.


6 posted on 04/21/2010 10:07:21 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: k omalley

They keep getting scalps- the rabid newsmedia smells blood in the water and they will encircle the right-wing bishops and cardinals. Just watch and see.


7 posted on 04/21/2010 10:07:46 AM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Pyro7480

Ping!


8 posted on 04/21/2010 10:07:48 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


9 posted on 04/21/2010 10:10:58 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Good catch. Fr Z is always on top of it!


10 posted on 04/21/2010 10:12:59 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Wow.

There's always "more to the story".

I think the Church should take the position of telling the secular world to pound sand. "The Church does not jump through hoops for her enemies".

11 posted on 04/21/2010 10:15:45 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

The Archdiocese of Boston essentially told its flock to pound sand, why not tell the rest of the world.


12 posted on 04/21/2010 10:24:27 AM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: outpostinmass2
The Archdiocese of Boston essentially told its flock to pound sand, why not tell the rest of the world.

There's a huge world of difference between the bishop telling his flock to pound sand, and the bishop telling the secular world to pound sand.

By virtue of his office, the Bishop owes his flock good, honest leadership. Keeping them properly informed and protecting them from certain categories of malefactors is part of the job.

To the secular world, which in many ways is the enemy of the Church, the bishop's only job is to preach the Gospel. Jumping though hoops for it, or (worse) taking advice from it, is stupid.

13 posted on 04/21/2010 11:49:41 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
If you have the time, could you explain to me (in simple language) what the obligation of a confessor is if a penitent confesses something which is dangerous, a crime, and likely to lead to more dangers to others, and more crimes?

For instance, if a penitent confesses murders, or obsessive murdeous fantasies (with acts, e.g. getting ammo), or pedophilia, or the like?

Can the confessor say, "I can't grant you absolution until you turn yourself in to the police"?

If the confessor can't go to the police himself, is there some other way he can protect the innocent? (Can he tell Mrs. Parishioner Jones and say, "No, you shouldn't let little Jimmy go on a fishing trip with Mr. N"? Is there some way he can drop the dime on the guy without sacramental violation?)

Ears perked.

14 posted on 04/21/2010 12:03:19 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

How about reporting a crime so that these criminals can be prosecuted to stop any further victimization? Is the church responsible for informing the public and non-catholics or secular then? The Bishop owes society to put criminals behind bars as does anyone who witnesses or has information of a crime.


15 posted on 04/21/2010 12:18:47 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: outpostinmass2

By virtue of his office, the Bishop owes his flock good, honest leadership. Keeping them properly informed and protecting them from certain categories of malefactors is part of the job.


16 posted on 04/21/2010 12:24:17 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

How about reporting a crime so that these criminals can be prosecuted to stop any further victimization? Is the church responsible for informing the public and non-catholics or secular then? The Bishop owes society to put criminals behind bars as does anyone who witnesses or has information of a crime.


17 posted on 04/21/2010 12:35:15 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: outpostinmass2

I believe that I have answered your questions.


18 posted on 04/21/2010 12:42:03 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

But how does the priest know it’s Mr. N in the confessional? Unless he really and truly KNOWS, rather than just suspects, even if he was willing to violate the Seal, he’d be slandering Mr. N by telling Mrs. Parishioner Jones not to let him take her boy fishing.


19 posted on 04/21/2010 12:57:02 PM PDT by nina0113
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To: NYer

Good, it’s time to clean out the stables. They should be reported and defrocked as soon as it’s known to them.


20 posted on 04/21/2010 12:59:49 PM PDT by McGavin999 (Have you donated to Free Republic yet? If not you are a Freeploader)
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To: outpostinmass2
"Dear Sheriff, a person I have not seen and whose voice I did not recognize confessed to me that he has molested children."

Since a person can confess to any priest, not just his own, all that means is that there's a child molester out there somewhere. The police already know that.

21 posted on 04/21/2010 1:00:41 PM PDT by nina0113
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To: ArrogantBustard

The Bishop owes society to put criminals behind bars as does anyone who witnesses or has information of a crime.


22 posted on 04/21/2010 1:01:24 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: NYer; Pyro7480
However, in any event, a beautiful, dignified Traditional Latin Mass will be celebrated at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on Saturday at 1PM and will be the first time in nearly a half century this has occurred.

This Mass will be the first scheduled, formally announced Traditional Mass to be celebrated at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in many years.

But I have heard that a priest (or priests) frequently says the Traditional Mass at the Shrine Grotto, but these are informal, not-published-in-the-bulletin Masses.

I would appreciate any information you could tell me about how/when to attend one of these Masses.

If you do not want to post on the thread, please Freepmail me.

Thanks in advance.

23 posted on 04/21/2010 1:02:04 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: NYer; Pyro7480
I didn't mean you, you -- just if any Freepers have information. :-)
24 posted on 04/21/2010 1:05:32 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: Dajjal

This will be the first TLM at the high altar of the Great Upper Church since the 1960s. There have been Solemn High Masses at the main altar of the Crypt Church since the Motu Proprio in 2007. The weekly Masses are low Masses in the Lourdes Chapel.


25 posted on 04/21/2010 1:05:59 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: nina0113

Not all confessions are performed in a confessional. I have confessed sins to a priest twice face to face. In this case the Bishop new who the priest was. If he did not want to go to authorities then he should have placed the priest under 24 hour survalence. I wonder how many times this molester confessed his crimes to go forth and sin again?


26 posted on 04/21/2010 1:08:08 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: nina0113

What you said is absolutely true if the priest doesn’t know who made the confession. But my question remains: what if he does? Then what’s his next step?


27 posted on 04/21/2010 1:16:28 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: Pyro7480
There have been Solemn High Masses at the main altar of the Crypt Church since the Motu Proprio in 2007. The weekly Masses are low Masses in the Lourdes Chapel.

Many, many thanks! Do you know about what time the Masses are said?

28 posted on 04/21/2010 1:18:38 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
He can make secular restitution (in this case, confession to the police) a condition of absolution. If the penitent ISN'T actually penitent, wanting to make things right, what's he doing at Confession anyway?

I think the point is really moot though - it's my understanding that pedophiles don't think they're doing anything wrong, which is why they can't be fixed by therapy.

29 posted on 04/21/2010 1:21:39 PM PDT by nina0113
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To: outpostinmass2

This Bishop (or any priest) is absolutely obligated NOT to discuss with ANYONE, ANYTHING he has heard in confession.


30 posted on 04/21/2010 1:26:30 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: outpostinmass2
Not all confessions are performed in a confessional. I have confessed sins to a priest twice face to face.

Most of us (Catholics) have done that ... It has no bearing on the priest's absolute obligation to keep secret the contents of your confession.

31 posted on 04/21/2010 1:28:34 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: nina0113

Then why did the molester priest confess his sin in this instance?


32 posted on 04/21/2010 1:44:24 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: ArrogantBustard

Is he obligated to make sure the molester does not harm any one else? He doesn’t need to go to the authorities to accomplish this. In fact all he would have to do is watch him for another couple of hours or days and catch him in the act and then report him. That is what I would have done.


33 posted on 04/21/2010 1:57:02 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: outpostinmass2; ArrogantBustard; McGavin999; nina0113
How about reporting a crime so that these criminals can be prosecuted to stop any further victimization?

That is an excellent point. And I wonder how many non-Catholic priests are out there right now victimizing young children, yet no one in the media seems to be concerned.

Some of you may recall this little boy

On May 25, 1979, a little boy left for school and never came home. By late in the afternoon, when Etan had not returned home, the Patzes called the police. Officers searched the neighborhood. It was a difficult investigation. There were no leads. There was no crime scene. They couldn't dust for fingerprints. They didn't even know where he disappeared. It would take years before a suspect emerged.

Some boys had accused a man named Jose Antonio Ramos of trying to lure them inside a drainpipe, where he lived in 1982 in the Bronx. When police searched the drainpipe, they found photographs of Ramos and young boys who resembled Etan. When no one pressed charges, the case was dropped and Ramos vanished.

In 1985, Ramos was brought to NY to meet with a detective who asked him directly, "How many times did you have sex with Etan Patz?" According to the detective, Ramos "froze" and said, "I'll tell you everything." Ramos' response is now known as "the 90 percent confession." He admitted taking a young boy back to his apartment for sex on the day Etan disappeared and told GraBois he was 90 percent sure it was the boy he later saw on TV. As GraBois pointed out, "the only boy missing and on television that evening was Etan Patz." GraBois said that at that moment he "believed we had the right guy." But the confession was not complete. Ramos did not use Etan's name and he claimed he had "put the boy on a subway."

No Catholic will ever defend the indefensible. Most of the sex abuse that took place dates back to the 50's and earlier, long before JPII. I would ask you, however, what is being done in non-Catholic communities to stop predatory sex abuse of children? This is not limited to the Catholic Church.

Sex Abuse of Children by Protestant Clergy.

The Catholic Church here, through its bishops in the USCCB, have implemented a program to prevent future occurrences. This includes all members of the community who come in contact with children, from janitors in the schools to volunteers who teach children at the parish level. We all are subjected to fingerprinting and a police background check. We are also required to attend classes on how to identify sexual predators and what actions to take. This is possible because of the centralized nature of the Catholic Church. It is also the reason why the media have been able to focus a laser beam on us. This is not possible in the non-Catholic denominations where there is no one to take responsibility.

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

Worse still, is the sex abuse of children in the education system.

WHEN BOYS ARE MOLESTED BY TEACHERS AND OTHERS IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY

And then there are the camp counselors, Big Brothers of America and the list goes on and on. There is plenty of guilt to go around. You should be more concerned about the counteless victims of Ramos than the 0.3% of priests. Ramos said the boys were "friends," and none turned out to be Etan. Ramos did tell detectives, however, that his former girlfriend had worked for the Patzes, walking Etan to and from school during a bus strike.

34 posted on 04/21/2010 2:02:30 PM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

Which does not obsolve the Catholic church and I am still concerned. The molestation in the Archdiocese of Boston was taking place as recently as 1995. The cases that were brought forward in court mostly occured in the 70’s and 80’s. The transfer of Cardinal Law to Rome is most troubling. Law should have been defrocked and he should have faced criminal prosecution.

The Vatican under Pope John PaulII claimed it was only an American problem. I guess he was wrong. The secracy and inactions of the “leadership “ is systemic. I only read claims by the leadership that they have fixed the problems and things are different but the abuse continues.

It is time that the church come completely clean and have an open and honest debate on this problem. Molester are monsters and infest all sorts of organizations that is true. But it does not obsolve or minimize the responsibility of the church.


35 posted on 04/21/2010 2:15:40 PM PDT by outpostinmass2
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To: McGavin999; Houghton M.
"Defrocking"? Not really.

When there's a credible allegation against a priest, three things have to happen, and fast:

  1. the victim needs to bring criminal charges against the abuser,
  2. the bishop must cancel all the accused man's priestly assignments, and
  3. the bishop must forbid him, in any case (assignment or no assignment) to function as a priest (this is what we call "the loss of priestly faculties.")

Please keep in mind that this is what the bishop must do, locally. (It's exactly what mine, Bishop Richard Stika of Knoxville, did immediately when he was given credible information that a priest had abused a teenager.) It is not the job of the Vatican, it is not done in Rome, it is not the responsibility of the Pope, it is entirely different from laicization (which is done in Rome), and it is not called "defrocking."

I say this not to be nit-picky, but because it has resulted in a lot of confusion as people don't know what the terms mean.

When people say "defrocking," (a squishy journalists' term) they rightly mean #2 and #3 above, but they usually have it confused with "laicization" or "being kicked out of the priesthood."

"Laicization," which means being dismissed from the clerical state, has little relevance to the abuse cases, because it simply means the man is dispensed from his vows, such as the vow of celibacy and the vow of obedience to his bishop, and has permission to live "as a layman."

When you think about it, you realize that laicization means less restriction (no vow of celibacy) and less supervision (no vow of obedience.) The vast majority of laicizations are not connected to crimes of any sort, they're requested by the priest himself because he doesn't want to have the responsibilities of the priesthood anymore.

I hope I'm making myself clear here. Laicization is not actually what you want. What you want is for the bishop to cooperate wth the cops, put an end to the alleged abuser's assignment and his faculties, and insist that he stop violating his vows of celibacy and obedience. You don't just release him from his vows.

It's this confusion between the bishop's duty, and "the Vatican's" duty --- all jumbled together in the word "defrocking" --- which has enabled news outlets like the New York Times to make ludicrous charges against the Pope concerning, for instance, the Milwaukee case, when the Pope had nothing to do with it, while the @%#$$## Archbishop, Rembert Weakland, ignored the case and sat on the facts for almost 20 years.

It's like blaming Pres. Bush for something the Governor of Indiana neglected to do in 1975.

(Pause for a breath.)

Please pardon me for unleashing this whole torrent of words on YOU, my dear McGavin, just because you innocently used the word "defrocking".

But I wanted to get it said, because honest people are so often unclear about what's going on, and end up inadvertently attacking the good guys, and letting the genuine bad-ass bad guys off the hook-- and the media (NYT, AP, Reuters) have compounded this x 1000.

(Houghton M, do I have this about right?)

36 posted on 04/21/2010 2:24:22 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarification.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
No problem at all. I'm not Catholic so I'm not familiar with the terms. I would never blame anything like this on any Pope let alone Benedict (who I am very fond of).

My use of the word "defrocking" is more removal from the priesthood after (and only after) conviction.

I have never understood protecting a child molester, but it's not the fault of the church, it is the fault of weak bosses who know about it and hide it.

37 posted on 04/21/2010 2:40:43 PM PDT by McGavin999 (Have you donated to Free Republic yet? If not you are a Freeploader)
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To: nina0113
Thanks for mentioning "secular restitution," which is what I think the priest has the authority to insist on: "I can't absolve you until you tell the cops."

Sin darkens the intellect. To put it simply, "Sin makes you stupid."

Most people involved in sin --any sin, but especially the passionate sins --- go back and forth, half-repenting and then half-justifying themselves, denying, shaving off facts, having episodes of self-reproach and then a bunch of "but on the other hand" or "my case is so special, I'm not like those other people" or "I want to be good, but not too good and not quite all the time."

That's one of the reasons why actual spoken confession is so important: it helps the half-assed half-penitent expose his actions in an objective way, and maybe hear "for himself" how deluded he has really been.

That's what we hope for.

Gah, sin is such a pile of muck.

A court trial should help make things stand out in sharp relief for the self-deceiving offender.

(And I recall that Samuel Johnson said, "The prospect of hanging concentrates the mind.")

38 posted on 04/21/2010 2:46:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarification.)
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To: McGavin999

Thanks, McGavin. As we say in Tennessee, “I ‘preciate’ya.”


39 posted on 04/21/2010 2:49:48 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pray (Pray!) Oh yes we Pray (Pray!)-- You've Got to Pray Just to Make it Today. --MC Hammer)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"When a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."

- Sam had ghost-written a 'last goodnight' for a criminal who was hanged at Tyburn. Everyone wondered how an illiterate lowlife had composed such a moving and eloquent farewell speech. That was Sam's reply.

40 posted on 04/21/2010 3:10:59 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)T)
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To: Dajjal
I would appreciate any information you could tell me about how/when to attend one of these Masses.

Is this anywhere close to you? http://www.parishes.org/marymothergod.html
41 posted on 04/21/2010 3:27:14 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Thanks! I’m usin’ that!


42 posted on 04/21/2010 3:52:02 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pray (Pray!) Oh yes we Pray (Pray!)-- You've Got to Pray Just to Make it Today. --MC Hammer)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

LOL! Sam wouldn’t mind. He was quite a character, difficult in some aspects but a true and loyal friend to those who could put up with his quirks. I would have liked to have met him.


43 posted on 04/21/2010 4:00:42 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)T)
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To: mlizzy
Is this anywhere close to you?

Thanks. I know about those Masses.

I'm trying to find out when the non-advertised Traditional Masses are said at the Shrine.

44 posted on 04/21/2010 6:25:16 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
This Bishop (or any priest) is absolutely obligated NOT to discuss with ANYONE, ANYTHING he has heard in confession.

That isn't exactly true. He can't discuss anything that would identify an individual penitent or associate that individual penitent with a specific sin. He can make general statements about the confessions he hears as a group, but not specific statements about what specific individuals have told him.

45 posted on 04/21/2010 6:43:34 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
If you have the time, could you explain to me (in simple language) what the obligation of a confessor is if a penitent confesses something which is dangerous, a crime, and likely to lead to more dangers to others, and more crimes?

There's a classic old Alfred Hitchcock movie about this theme, called I Confess.

The priest can make going to the police a condition of absolution. However, he cannot do or say anything that would tie a particular sin (or anything else said in confession) to a particular penitent.

(It would seem to me that in some circumstances he could attempt to deflect suspicion from someone he knew to be innocent, since that's not necessarily tying a sin to a particular penitent. He just couldn't say anything more about how he had acquired that information.)

As has been pointed out, in a traditional confessional setting, the priest often does not know the identity of the penitent anyway, since he or she is behind a screen.

46 posted on 04/21/2010 6:55:34 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Dajjal
Thanks. I know about those Masses. I'm trying to find out when the non-advertised Traditional Masses are said at the Shrine.

I hope you find them; I love the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo Latin as well. We've been attending them since the first of the year.
47 posted on 04/21/2010 7:57:35 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Very good.


48 posted on 04/22/2010 6:08:48 AM PDT by Hieronymus
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I have always thought that there was more to this story than the press reports.....

I am praying for the Cardinal and for the truth to come to the light.


49 posted on 04/22/2010 6:14:25 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I can understand the Cardinal giving the Bishop support for not turning the priest over, if it were later discovered that the Bishop had discovered the abuse while administering the Sacrament of Penance. However, that distinction will be lost or ignored in any media reports about the matter, and if the Cardinal were to be the celebrant, the Mass would be 'tainted', if you will, by the continual references to the letter.

Much as the Cardinal's actions might have been canonically correct, we have to look past that sometimes, because we're dealing with a media situation here, whether we like it, or not. I'm sure there is someone else the Vatican can find to do the Latin Mass in honor of the Pope's fifth anniversary in the Pontificate.

50 posted on 04/22/2010 11:09:43 AM PDT by SuziQ
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