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To: annalex
"Human imagination can create in their mind many sensations... "

I don't know what you are talking about.

Then you didn't read what I said - read it again! The human imagination is a wonderful thing, it can create for itself unsound beliefs, such as smelling an onion while eating a piece of potato (making one think he/she is eating an onion). Give it some thought!

The Eucharist does taste like unleavened bread and wine. No illusions there.

To me, when I was a Catholic and partook of the communion, the "bread" was virtually tasteless, and there was no "wine". However, at my mothers funeral, the priest invited all family members, regardless of their religious affiliation, to partake of the communion. I did, although no longer a Catholic, and partaking did consist in a sip of the wine, which tasted like wine :-) - so yes, to you it may taste like unleaven bread and the wine as wine; but to me, having never tasted "unleaven bread", well, I have no idea what it tastes like.

"Christians do the same..."

No, priests do the same. Christian laity cannot give bread and say "This is the Body of Christ". The laity was not sent by Christ to "do this".

All Christians are "priests", and as I've many times led the assembly in meditation and prayer before partaking of the Lord's Supper, and I hold the bread up and say that Christ said, "This is my body"; and likewise with the wine, which Christ said "this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many." "Do this in memory of me." In Jesus' discourse in John 6 we find Him saying to the apostles after many disciples left him that "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and thay are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." These last words of Jesus are included in the context of his talk on being the "bread that came down from heaven", which is Himself! Is that too hard to understand?

The Mass is exactly the same thing: prayers, readings from the scripture (that is the commemorative part), consecration of the Eucharist by the priest and eating it by all.

I sure don't find that in any of the verses and passages that describe the Lord's Supper conversation. That may be your reading between the lines of Scripture, but it isn't mine.

Teachign and baptising is the only part that can be done by anyone; the reast requires at least priestly ordination.

And where in the world do you find that in Scriptures?

"imagination and suppositions are not what Christians base their beliefs upon."

All we do is hear Christ say "this is My body" and believe Him. We don't run away from the Holy Scripture -- we are Catholics.

Hmmm...I figured as much, as I was once a Catholic. However, imagination an suppositions make up the majority of what Catholics believe. Jesus said much more than "this is my body", but then Catholics don't seem to finish reading the whole context from which they get their partial belief. How can you brush off what Jesus said in John's recording of Jesus' discourse - that the words He had just spoken to them are "spirit and life"?

I know where you are coming from. I was once there and was just as adamant as you in defending my belief. However, as I was urged to read further by Fr. Stark, Jesus' discourse took on much more importance to me, and corrected my mistaken beliefs. I found in closer investigation of the Scriptures that I was mistaken in holding to the beliefs as you uphold. I was evidently wrong once in believing all that my teachers taught, thinking that they had investigated everything they taught that I should believe. I was wrong once through lack of careful study and do not wish to repeat the same mistake of blindly believing what others say. Assertions and denunciations will not brush away the truth found in the Scriptures, nor will a recital of ecclesiastical traditions. The whole case rests upon "what do the Scriptures say?" as only Scripture can prove false beliefs wrong.

It's up to you now...

31 posted on 05/04/2010 9:51:04 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
The human imagination is a wonderful thing

It is, but in receiving the Eucharist no imagination is involved. We know it is the body of Christ but it is spiritual knowledge and not any kind of affectation.

These last words of Jesus are included in the context of his talk on being the "bread that came down from heaven", which is Himself! Is that too hard to understand?

What is it that you think I don't understand? Regarding all Christians being priests, we are inwardly priests to our family. To consecrate the Eucharist requires ministerial, ordained, priesthood because we have evidence of such in the scripture. We have no evidence of everyone consecrating the Eucharist.

your reading between the lines of Scripture

You disagree that at theLast Supper there was a prayer, consecration of the Eucharist by Jesus and eating it by all?

And where in the world do you find that in Scriptures?

The Church is authorized to regulate worship as seen in the authority to "bind and loose" given to the Church. The Mass being a sacrifice is explained by St. Paul in 1 Cor 11, the priest is one who offers sacrifice is common understadning of priesthood, and the requirement of ordination is directly referred to in 1 Timothy 4:14 as "imposition of the hands of the priesthood", as well as from the fact that at the Last Supper Jesus told the Apostles to do what He just did, make the bread and wine into His body and blood.

Jesus said much more than "this is my body"

Indeed, but nothing in the wider context controverts the Catohlic understanding of "This si my body" and "do this". How, for example, the reference to His words being "spirit and life" invalidate them?

The whole case rests upon "what do the Scriptures say?"

Not the whole case, as it is the authority of the Church that produced the scripture. However, the scripture supports wholly the Catholic doctrine and condemns Protestant fiction directly, as the reader of this thread can see.

33 posted on 05/04/2010 4:54:13 PM PDT by annalex
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