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To: RegulatorCountry
How do you square this reality with the ideals you espouse? It doesn't square. The church has been corrupted. It's been notably corrupted numerous times over recorded history.

The cognitive dissonance must be quite jarring.

As Tom Sowell often says, you can prove anything if you exclude the data which conflicts with your theory and include the data that confirms it.

For you to make this argument requires excluding the data on the enabling and concealment of sexual misbehavior in the non-Catholic denominations and in the world, and, more seriously, the efforts in the non-Catholic world to declare perversion normal and good.

AND you have to exclude the teaching of church, indeed, of the Bible, that the treasure is contained in earthen vessels.

The Catholics who read the Bible, which your side wants to pretend is very nearly the empty set, are not surprised that the clergy are assaulted by Satan or that many of them succumb. We understand sin and are aware of our own.

That many people, clergy and lay, sometimes slip into grotesque and awful moral failure does not touch the question of whether to be moral, sexually and otherwise, is to be free. Raising the question of the failings of one group, however, is a fine way to reduce the probability of a decent useful conversation.

786 posted on 05/09/2010 5:41:22 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Mad Dawg
For you to make this argument requires excluding the data on the enabling and concealment of sexual misbehavior in the non-Catholic denominations and in the world, and, more seriously, the efforts in the non-Catholic world to declare perversion normal and good.

I've not gone into the world as a whole in this discussion because it's fallen and has been since Eve was corrupted and Adam listened to her instead of God. The condemnation of such worldly behavior as sexual immorality is a given, and such condemnation cannot possibly be detailed thoroughly enough on this forum.

As far as apparently systematic, widespread concealment and protection of sexually immoral church priests, pastors, preachers or other individuals in positions of authority, who sexually abuse minor congregants or even congregants of any age at all, you're going to have a hard time demonstrating anything on the scale of the Roman Catholic Church.

Individual cases, certainly. I've yet to see an instance of such cases not being dealt with swiftly and the offending individuals removed from any position of authority if not the church itself, once the offense became known. It's been alleged that repeat offenders just move on to another Protestant church and are able to do so, due to the lack of any overarching hierarchy. That claim might be plausible, but I've yet to see evidence of it.

Again, man is fallen and prone to sin, and some will fall prey to their particular weaknesses. But an entire denomination apparently dedicated to moving sexual predators around, publicly defending them and sending them off to another church instead of removing them and handing them over to civil authorities?

No. The Protestant world just does not work that way. Neither should the Catholic, as you're learning, painfully.

788 posted on 05/09/2010 6:02:52 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Mad Dawg

“You can prove anything if you exclude the data which conflicts with your theory and include data that confirms it.”

Which makes this MO much more like an agenda than a reasonable, “useful conversation”.

“Come let us reason together” is a scriptural counsel, which apparently doesn’t apply here.


789 posted on 05/09/2010 6:11:07 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: Mad Dawg
For you to make this argument requires excluding the data on the enabling and concealment of sexual misbehavior in the non-Catholic denominations and in the world, and, more seriously, the efforts in the non-Catholic world to declare perversion normal and good.

A little problem with that theory...It's called a lack of evidence...

For who knows how many years the defense of the Catholic church has been 'don't pick on us, other groups molest kids just as much as we do'...

Now the new twist now is, 'don't pick on us, other groups cover it up and hide the crime and shuffle their people around to cover it up as well'...

Well, in a word, that's not at all true...And that's why your church is in everyone's sights...

And that's a lousy job of trying to stick the Protestants into your immoral non-Catholic world...

790 posted on 05/09/2010 6:13:31 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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