Replies

The dictated manuscript was by scribes who wrote on paper the words that Joseph Smith spoke. The words that Joseph Smith spoke were not read from any book or manuscript in the English language.

Testimony of the scribes tell us that smith didn't use the plates at all. He stuffed his head into his hat with his seer stone.

The first set would behold the book by the power of God: "The book shall be hid from the eyes of the world that the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, beside him to whom the book shall be delivered, and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein."

Yet none of the three ever testified to viewing the plates with their PHYSICAL eyes John, but would only attest to seeing them with 'spiritual' eyes. How trustworthy were these three?

Martin Harris

... if the Saints wish to know what the Lord hath said of him, they may turn to the 178th page of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the person there called a 'wicked man' is no other than Martin Harris ... (Millennial Star, vol. 8, November 15, 1846, p. 124.)

Phineas H. Young, writing to Brigham Young from Kirtland, Ohio records, "Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was of the Book of Mormon." (Gunnell 1955, 52) W.C. Gunnell in his dissertation on Martin Harris also notes regarding M. Harris' eventual rejoining of the church that "Martin's motives in being baptized at that time are not known, but the data of later events would indicate a lack of sincerity." (Gunnell 1955, 52)

Oliver Cowdery

Excommunicated from the mormon church. [Cowdery] transgressed the law of God; he committed adultery; the Spirit of God withdrew from him, and he, the second elder in the Church, was excommunicated from the Church. (Juvenile Instructor, 1885, p. 360)

Joseph Smith himself said, "Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them" (Smith 1902, 3:232).

David Whitmer

These are just excerpts - the credibility of the three as far as a witness to the bom is worthless, as their history has shown.

None of the eleven of the witnesses, though many of them were at times estranged from the church or its leaders, ever denied their printed testimonies.

Try excommunicated John, not estranged. AFA the other eight - it is notable that these eight men fall naturally into two groups of four. The first group is comprised of four brothers of David Whitmer, who himself was one of the three witnesses: Christian, Jacob, Peter jun., and John Whitmer. The second four are Joseph Smith's father, Joseph's two brothers (Hyrum and Samuel) and Hiram Page, who was married to the Whitmer's sister, Catherine. Another sister, Elizabeth, married Oliver Cowdery. So, all the witnesses, except Martin Harris, were closely related to one another.

Even if the majority of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon did not deny their testimony of the book itself, this does little to support Mormonism today. Current Mormon doctrine on the nature of God, the priesthood, use of temples, baptism for the dead, and men becoming gods, is nowhere contained in the Book of Mormon. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the Mormon church. If these men were alive today, they would be considered apostates who had turned their back on the Spirit of God. They would be cut off from the LDS church and condemned to outer darkness, regardless of whether or not they still believed in the bom.

"and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands."

Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer. Hyrum and Samuel's statements are further qualified by their brother William who, in an interview, also claimed to have handled the plates. He said:
"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. ... Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family."

Hiram Page's testimony regarding his part as one of the eight witnesses, he never mentions seeing or handling the plates, but instead emphasizes that Joseph had to have supernatural power to write such a book. He also says:
"And to say that those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of the Lord of the last days — three of whom came to me afterwards and sang a hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies." (Ensign of Liberty, 1848, cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol 7:4, Winter 1972, p. 84.)

Sorry John, they didn't do as claimed - handle the leaves. Your witnesses are not credible, your prophet is not credible, your bom is not credible.

Sorry John, they didn't do as claimed - handle the leaves. Your witnesses are not credible.

They eight witnesses testified to "all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work [the Book of Mormon] shall come" that "as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands: and we also saw the engravings thereon."

This is significant for understanding the origin of the Book of Mormon. It means that there were engravings on all the leaves that they handled, and they handled all of the leaves that Smith had translated, the only ones not translated being the sealed portion that they could not open for viewing.

Since they testified that the plates "have the appearance of gold", the time and expense for someone to have made up such plates with engravings on all of the leaves, in order to deceive the eight witnesses, is absurd, since a deception that did not involve plates to be examined by wirnesses would be easier in every way! The plates are real and were really examined by eight men who never denied their printed testimony.

The sequence back from printed Book of Mormon, to printer's manuscript, to dictated manuscript, to Joseph Smith speaking the words he was translating by the gift and power of God, from the plates that were, in full consciousness, later examined by the eight witnesses, leaves no room for the insertion of anything else into the sequence that produced the Book of Mormon.

Those who say that someone other than Joseph Smith produced the words that he read to the scribes of the dictated manuscript are not at all agreed on who the "real" author or authors was or were. Until they get their act together and agree on a deception that can be explained as fitting somewhere in the sequence from real plates, to speaking words read from the plates, to the dictated manuscript, to the printer's manuscript, to the first printing of the Book of Mormon, they will be seen for what they are, persons EMOTIONALLY WANTING the Book of Mormon to be false, without being able to explain exactly what the deception was and where it occurred in the sequence. To claim falsehood and not be able to demonstrate falsehood, in a way that the majority of Book of Mormon doubters can agree to, is childish.