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To: bkaycee
If I ask you "What is the sure norm by which Christians know the teachings of Christ?"

you will answer SOLA scriptura (please correct me if this is a wrong assumption)

However, Paul advised Timothy to take as his norm the sound words that Paul spoke to him (2 Tim. 1:13)
13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us
Timothy knew that even if a particular teaching was not written down, Christians were still expected to abide by it (2 Thess. 2:15)
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
and to defer to the authority of Church leaders (Heb. 13:17)
17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
. The only way a person could know what these unwritten binding traditions were was to keep their ear to the mouth of the Church. If the Church were merely a collection of saved individuals-none with any real authority over the others-then Scripture would not tout her as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
whom we must listen to or be cut off (Matt: 18:17)
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector


Nothing in scripture indicates what the canon of the New Testament should be, but this silence in no way hindered the Church from exercising the authority given to her by Christ (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:17-18) to decide the canon under the power of the Holy Spirit which still pervades and guides the Church

Keep in mind that if Scripture does not record an event, it does not follow that the event did not happen. Scripture does not record Paul or Peter's journey to Rome, and they were both martyred there while the Bible was still being written. With this in mind, it would be unscriptural and unreasonable to conclude that the dogma of Mary's Assumption is false because it is not mentioned explicitly in Scripture.

Epiphanius said in A.D. 377, "Let them search the scriptures. They will not find Mary's death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried. More than that: John journeyed to Asia, yet nowhere do we read that he took the holy Virgin with him. Rather, Scripture is absolutely silent [on Mary's earthly end] because of the extraordinary nature of the prodigy, in order not to shock the minds of men. . . . Neither do I maintain stoutly that she died. . . .

"Did she die? We do not know. At all events, if she was buried, she had no carnal intercourse. . . . Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and he can do whatever he desires" (Panarion, haer. 78, nn. 10-11,23: G.C.S., 37, 461-462; 474).
1,016 posted on 06/10/2010 7:16:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Origen(200AD)"The Church received from theApostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants")
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To: Cronos
However, Paul advised Timothy to take as his norm the sound words that Paul spoke to him

(2 Tim. 1:13) 13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Timothy knew that even if a particular teaching was not written down, Christians were still expected to abide by it

(2 Thess. 2:15) 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

and to defer to the authority of Church leaders (Heb. 13:17) 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1. The Apostles preached one body of truth when they were alive. They wrote the truth and preached the truth. Both were authoritative.

2. The Gospel revelation was given once to the Apostles and saints while they were alive.

Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

3. Unfortunately, for the Catholic e-pologist, any mention of tradition or reference to "word of mouth", rings the pavlov bell and the e-pologist starts salivating "unwritten oral docrine". To insert an anachronistic meaning to tradition is totally without warrant. It is NOT what the early church fathers thought

Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him

"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

for Irenaeus, the content of tradition and Scripture is the same. As J.N.D. Kelly observes:

The whole point of his (Irenaeus’) teaching was, in fact, that Scripture and the Church’s unwritten tradition are identical in content, both being vehicles of the revelation. If tradition was conveyed in the ‘canon’ is a more trustworthy guide, this is not because it comprises truths other than those revealed in Scripture, but because the true tenor of the apostolic message is there unambiguously set out.
In fact Catholic e-pologist have more in common with Gnostics according to Irenaeus

When however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and assert that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For they allege that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce (orally)...For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to &‘the perfect’ apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the churches themselves.
http://www.christiantruth.com/scriptureandchurchfathers.html The burden of proof is entirely yours to prove that the Apostles preached Oral doctrine, not recorded in scripture and still binding!

All the distint Catholic only doctrine appears MANY HUNDREDS of YEARS after the apostles had passed away!

History and the testimony of the church fathers declare you to be in error.

1,022 posted on 06/10/2010 11:14:10 AM PDT by bkaycee
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