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To: conservativegramma
I'd take even that nutball

Ah, so you would follow Benny Hinn or any of the televangelists?

Why would you follow one of those heresies instead of returning to the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church? Why deny Christ? Strange...
1,041 posted on 06/12/2010 9:43:24 PM PDT by Cronos (Origen(200AD)"The Church received from theApostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants")
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To: Cronos
I'm not the one denying Christ, you are. You place Christ second to Mary. His position as mediator as been usurped as one example of his usurpation. All to follow after the pelagian heresy denounced by the early fathers.

Your belief in the sinlessness of Mary and all the other abominable doctrines revolving around Mary did not originate with the Apostles, it originated in the fifth century with the heretics Pelagius and Celestius and was universally rejected by both Fathers and popes of the early church, as evidenced by its rejection by Augustine and Gregory the Great, and in later centuries by Anselm, Bernard of Clairveaux, and Thomas Aquinas. The Roman Catholic patristic scholar, Walter Burghardt, confirms the patristic and papal rejection of this doctrine historically:

"Pelagius and Celestius used Mary, the mother of Jesus, as an example of one born free of original sin. Vincent of Lerins points out the origin of the teaching of the Immaculate Conception with these words: 'Who ever originated a heresy that did not first dissever himself from the consentient agreement of the universality and antiquity of the Catholic Church? That this is so is demonstrated in the clearest way by examples. For who ever before the profane Pelagius attributed so much antecedent strength to Free-will, as to deny the necessity of God's grace to aid it towards every good in every single act? Who ever before his monstrous disciple Celestius denied that the whole human race is involved in the guilt of Adam's sin?' (Vincent of Lerins, A Commonitory 24.62, Series Two, vol. XI, of Schaff and Wace, ed., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 149-50).

Again, I'm not the one following heresies: YOU ARE.

1,042 posted on 06/13/2010 5:42:10 AM PDT by conservativegramma
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