Posted on 06/15/2010 6:38:10 AM PDT by bkaycee
So it’s not about the repetitions at all then. It’s about the content.
Why don’t you at least be honest rather then throwing scripture out which has no bearing?
“And since when does the OT lead one to believe in Jesus Christ without the New Testament?”
Act 17:2-3, “And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.”
This is the message that Paul preached in the synagogues, including Berea. He preached that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ)and they would have searched the Isaiah and Zechariah prophecies to see if it was as Paul interpreted the scriptures concerning a “suffering Messiah”.
So in other words, while you may hold heretical beliefs, you could not be found guilty of the ecclesial crime of heresy...at least not according to canon law.
Isn't that a definition of crazy? To believe something is true AND reject it?
First of all, I probably worded that wrong. It's that you know enough to believe it and then reject it anyway. The exact wording is "full knowledge" and "deliberate intent."
An example of this would be a Catholic priest who was fully taught orthodox Catholic doctrine in seminary, yet went and taught that God has no problem with homosexual conduct or that God fully supports the concept of female ordination. Still and yet, he would not be guilty unless he meets the "obstinate" requirement. His superior would need to attempt to correct his erroneous teachings and he would still need to hold to them even after multiple attempts at being corrected.
If you were to take a look at Romans 2:14-15, it pretty well captures the situation you may find yourself in:
14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
The above is the Scriptural basis for the Catholic teaching on "invincible ignorance," as highlighted especially well by Pope Pius IX back 160 or so years ago.
Essentially, the belief is that God will not hold you to something where you haven't been fully instructed. But He will hold all of us to the natural law that He wrote on all of our hearts.
Again, let me point out that a full K-12 Catholic education, followed up by a Catholic university, you may still well have been improperly or insufficiently educated. I know that I must be very careful of my daughter's education (she will be in 12th grade next year)...as they have tried to instruct her erroneously in a number of areas. Frankly, had I left her religious formation strictly up to her Catholic elementary or secondary school, she might be looking forward to the day when she could bolt.
The point is that, while I have no doubt that you hold heretical beliefs, there is a distinction made in Canon Law between holding heretical beliefs and being guilty of the crime of heresy.
And, as I said before, there are some who I believe take pleasure in claiming that the full weight of the Inquisition is upon them and that they have to watch their backsides so that they aren't dragged into a dungeon and tortured with the comfy pillow until they confess...if you are one of those, I don't want to burst your bubble. But any excommunicating that has happened in your case is likely only you excommunicating yourself.
No wonder, your saying it wrong!
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
YES! And thank you for the scriptures! Maranatha
Wow, that sounds worse than what TSgt said. Looks eerily like goddess worship to me.
In fact the only place in the BIBLE the title 'Queen of Heaven' is found is in Jeremiah - and that's precisely what the Queen of Heaven was, a pagan goddess:
"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me." - Jeremiah 7:18. Cf, Jer. 44:17-19; 44:25
Really? They why the diverse and contradictory dogmas that multiple traditions derive from the "Scripture only?"
Considering that the Early Church was NOT unified by a single super Bishop, but many Churches with equal bishops. What dogma's are you talking about?
Do me a favor and look at my post #68 and post #104.
at the moment of your death when those who deny the Catholic Church will have to answer for their sins.
I probably wouldn't have phrased it that way.
Yes, if a person dies with unforgiven mortal sin on their soul, they will have some major problems.
And only the churches that have apostolic succession have authentic sacraments, one of which is the sacrament of reconciliation (a/k/a penance, a/k/a confession), which are the ordinary means whereby God dispenses His graces (although He is not limited to those ordinary means, dependence on an extraordinary means is not advisable).
And abandoning communion with the Body of Christ (a/k/a the Bride of Christ, a/k/a the Church established by Christ on the day of Pentecost) is objectively grave matter.
Having said that, for grave matter to be a mortal sin, one must have full knowledge and deliberate intent. In other words, it must be objectively grave. You have to know in your heart that it is objectively grave. And you must deliberately intend to do so anyway. That is a pretty high standard to meet. Not to say that it isn't ever met in the case of heresy or schism, but I think it's a lot less likely than some of us believe.
The point is that yeah...that is a teaching of our Church...but with a whole lot of caveats that have to be weighed in.
That's why I generally don't approach things that way.
Oh, OK. I wish you'd have said so right after my initial response, so as not to have wasted both our time.
You would be wrong.
Scripture does not contain every fact in the universe. It is, however, complete to serve as man's only rule of faith and practice, as God continually reminds us and as His saints declare.
"For if we reflect how prone the human mind is to lapse into forgetfulness of God, how readily inclined to every kind of error, how bent every now and then on devising new and fictitious religions, it will be easy to understand how necessary it was to make such a depository of doctrine as would secure it from either perishing by the neglect, vanishing away amid the errors, or being corrupted by the presumptuous audacity of men. It being thus manifest that God, foreseeing the inefficiency of his image imprinted on the fair form of the universe, has given the assistance of his Word to all whom he has ever been pleased to instruct effectually, we, too, must pursue this straight path, if we aspire in earnest to a genuine contemplation of God;—we must go, I say, to the Word, where the character of God, drawn from his works is described accurately and to the life; these works being estimated, not by our depraved Judgment, but by the standard of eternal truth. If, as I lately said, we turn aside from it, how great soever the speed with which we move, we shall never reach the goal, because we are off the course. We should consider that the brightness of the Divine countenance, which even an apostle declares to be inaccessible (1 Tim. 6:16), is a kind of labyrinth,—a labyrinth to us inextricable, if the Word do not serve us as a thread to guide our path; and that it is better to limp in the way, than run with the greatest swiftness out of it. Hence the Psalmist, after repeatedly declaring (Psalm 93, 96, 97, 99, &c). that superstition should be banished from the world in order that pure religion may flourish, introduces God as reigning; meaning by the term, not the power which he possesses and which he exerts in the government of universal nature, but the doctrine by which he maintains his due supremacy: because error never can be eradicated from the heart of man until the true knowledge of God has been implanted in it." -- John Calvin, Institutes 1.6.3"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." -- Martin Luther
So Luther says he is a non-Chalcedonian Christian? Same with Calvin?
For all his bluster about the Councils, I’ve yet to see anyone say that Lutherism is free from the ‘ecumenical councils’.
Except that this isn’t the Rosary. ;)
Hail Mary, full of Grace
The Lord is with you.
Blessed art thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
But then you knew this already because you are so familiar with the Rosary.
Looks Catholic To Me
IRENAEUS-"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.
“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).
I never said it was or wasn’t about either.
I simply replied to your question.
...Holy Mary mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen.
Except that this isn’t the Rosary. ;)
True, not part of the decades but it's at the end, and would have to be prayed by our Mary fearing brethren if they dared to meditate on the Gospel via the rosary.
And there most definitely is a church of Jesus Christ on earth.
The fact is that this church is not located in Rome. It is found wherever the word of God is preached in truth and spirit.
ph
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