Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Canyon Carved in Just Three Days in Texas Flood: Insight Into Ancient Flood Events on Earth and Mars
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100620155748.htm ^

Posted on 06/25/2010 3:10:04 PM PDT by BereanBrain

You gotta read the article before you start arguing with me. P.S. it's NOT from a creationist site. It's from Science Daily.

(Excerpt) Read more at sciencedaily.com ...


TOPICS: Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: carvedcanyon; creationism; evolution; grandcanyon; greatflood; noah; noahsflood; youngearth

1 posted on 06/25/2010 3:10:08 PM PDT by BereanBrain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

When speculative historical sciences meet reality.


2 posted on 06/25/2010 3:17:36 PM PDT by microgood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

Thought we’d change the title to what was published instead of, “Think the Grand Canyon *must* have been formed over millions of years? Think again.”


3 posted on 06/25/2010 3:17:37 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

The Washington state scablands were also created in a short time at the end of the last ice age when an enormous volume of water broke through an ice dam.


4 posted on 06/25/2010 3:17:42 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain
Gadzooks!

This event seems to support the Grand Canyon section Walt Brown's book.

(The entire book is online)

5 posted on 06/25/2010 3:24:44 PM PDT by skeptoid
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

If these guys want to see big rock sheets and boulders move, then they should consider looking at the Devils River watershed in SW Texas after a 2 inch rain.


6 posted on 06/25/2010 3:24:53 PM PDT by Deaf Smith (When a Texan takes his chances, you know chances will be taken that's for sure.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: microgood

“When speculative historical sciences meet reality.”

That’s a meeting that always leaves a mark.


7 posted on 06/25/2010 3:35:19 PM PDT by webstersII
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Admin Moderator

thanks moderator! And I was expecting to be bombarded by the evolutionary, old earth, “we know everything” crowd.

Been awhile since I posted last, what happened to that bunch? Maybe they are asleep at the keyboard, or have evolved into a higher lifeform. ;)


8 posted on 06/25/2010 3:38:58 PM PDT by BereanBrain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: DManA
"The Washington state scablands were also created in a short time at the end of the last ice age when an enormous volume of water broke through an ice dam."

The enormous volumes of water are probably correct.

The 'ice dam', however, is purely imaginary.

9 posted on 06/25/2010 3:44:27 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

Note: This is a cut and paste of a drive by insult I just used on another thread. It isn’t original so it has been discounted 30% just to insult you.

“Well, I wouldn’t want your Friday spoiled.
1. You smell like moldy cheese.
2. Flowers wilt when you pass.
3. Children have nightmares about you.
4. Women enter convents rather than date you.
5. Dogs would rather lick cats than be petted by you.
6. You are the only person Mother Teresa wanted to slap.
7. Beggars on the street give you change to go away.
8. The Jehovah’s Witnesses skip your house.
9. Hannibal Lector became a vegetarian because of you
and
10. Al Qaida,the Taliban, CAIR, NAMBLA, the ACLU, PETA, the DNC, and the Canadian Baby Seal Clubbing Association all rejected your membership applications because they thought if they were associated with you, people would hate them.

I got nothing to add to this thread. I was just cruising through looking for news and heard your cry for help.

I’m made that way. I was there for you. Have a fun Friday anyway!
Irish Catholic :-)”

Cool post, by the way. I have missed the Church of Evolution myself lately. They must be holding bake sales for their summer field trip to the Darwin Museum. That or they are busy kicking the snot out of an Intelligent Design scientist they jumped in the parking garage of the Smithsonian.


10 posted on 06/25/2010 3:45:50 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

You’re welcome and I enjoyed the article, too.


11 posted on 06/25/2010 3:53:43 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain
The canyon that was carved in three days:

Fossils exposed
Some of the canyon's rocks are punched with holes like Swiss cheese, and the fossils of worms and other ancient wildlife are everywhere. The rocks, typical of the limestone buried throughout central Texas, date back "111 million years, plus or minus a few hundred thousand years," Ward said.

Six three-toed dinosaur footprints offer evidence of a two-legged carnivore strolling along the water. The footprints were temporarily covered with sand to protect them as workers reinforced the spillway, but they'll be uncovered again eventually, Rhoad said.

end snip

*****


dinosaur footprints

Great color photos at this site

12 posted on 06/25/2010 4:19:28 PM PDT by deport
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: IrishCatholic

ahh! I feel better now. I am so used to the abuse, I have come to expect the ad-hominym attacks from the church of evolution!


13 posted on 06/25/2010 4:28:23 PM PDT by BereanBrain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

works 4 me


14 posted on 06/25/2010 4:43:05 PM PDT by raygunfan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

That’s pretty impressive.

In the span of six weeks, the power of the water chiseled out 21 feet of BEDROCK for a distance of more than 2 kilometers.

One can easily ask, what COULD it (that same power) do in a period of seven to ten months - the approximate length of time of Noah’s flood.


15 posted on 06/25/2010 4:50:57 PM PDT by Wuli
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

I’m here for you, man.


16 posted on 06/25/2010 4:55:13 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

“The ‘ice dam’, however, is purely imaginary.”

More so than your invisible friend in the sky?


17 posted on 06/25/2010 5:01:47 PM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: skeptoid
There are two obvious features of the Grand Canyon that show it couldn't have been formed by a flood. Its large scale dendritic structure, and its meandering path.

Contrast this with the Scablands of the Spokane Flood, which has a very different aspect.

18 posted on 06/25/2010 5:02:06 PM PDT by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Wuli
Well, event like this happen in minutes...

The question is not one of water carving bedrock - it clearly happens. My question in this case would be, what is the bedrock? Judging from the photograph, I'd say limestone, a water soluble rock. If you want to know how a valley is formed, you don't just look at the valley. You also look at the sediments that were removed.

19 posted on 06/25/2010 5:09:59 PM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: dr_lew

Anastomosis!


20 posted on 06/25/2010 5:15:58 PM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: stormer
"More so than your invisible friend in the sky?"

Yes.

21 posted on 06/25/2010 5:16:01 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

LOL. Whatever.


22 posted on 06/25/2010 5:23:10 PM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: stormer

LOL. Great comeback!


23 posted on 06/25/2010 5:28:49 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

From the article:

“The abrasion of rock by sediment-loaded waters — while less significant in terms of the overall formation of the canyon — produced other features, like sculpted walls, plunge pools at the bases of the waterfalls, and teardrop-shaped sediment islands. The sediment islands are particularly significant, Lamb says, because “these are features we see on Earth and on Mars in areas where we think large flow events have occurred. It’s nice that here we’re seeing some of the same features that we’ve interpreted elsewhere as evidence of large flow events.”

—These are not things seen with the Grand Canyon. So the features of this massive flood match up well with features that we believe to be past massive floods, but don’t match up with features such as the Grand Canyon. Go figure. :-) So I don’t why this story would be used as evidence that the Grand Canyon may have formed from a massive flood.

Canyons formed quickly by flood water are shaped differently from slower formed canyons as well. Slowly formed canyons have a “V” shape to them. Here’s pics of the Grand Canyon:
http://coolrain44.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/grand-canyon.jpg
http://fireflyforest.net/firefly/2005/11/12/aerial-view-of-the-grand-canyon/

Quickly formed canyons - such as the one formed by the eruption of Mt St Helens have a “U” shape to them. Look at figure 7:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/arent-millions-of-years-required
(And compare to the pic someone posted above)

And, oh yeah, You smell like moldy cheese! :-)


24 posted on 06/25/2010 5:47:40 PM PDT by goodusername
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain

I remember reading another canyon was created parallel to Engineers Canyon. From what I remember, the parallel canyon formed in a day due to mudflow when Mt. Saint Helens erupted. The difference might be in the type of material being moved... can’t remember.


25 posted on 06/25/2010 5:59:48 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

You don’t believe there was an ice age?


26 posted on 06/25/2010 6:45:45 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: DManA

Is that what I said?


27 posted on 06/25/2010 7:32:02 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

Well, you referred to an “imaginary” ice dam, and these are a well established feature of the late ice age.

It’s interesting that when Harlan Bretz advocated formation of the scablands by a catastrophic flood, his arguments were not accepted. Largely, one might presume, because they smacked of diluvialism, but ostensibly because no one could “imagine” how such a flood might have occurred.

It was many years later that independent lines of investigation led to evidence for the draining of a large glacial lake, and this reveresed the tide for Bretz’s reputation, fortunately still in his lifetime, but unfortunately very late in his career.


28 posted on 06/25/2010 7:51:45 PM PDT by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain
I think we have the better evidence of Mt St Helens where we have all kinds of stuff: trees buried inverted in many strata of soil, massive errosion, rapid fossilization, layers of soil that look amazingly like the alleged "billions of years" claimed everywhere else. Much of speculative historical science was debunked in the early summer of 1980
29 posted on 06/25/2010 7:58:48 PM PDT by The Theophilus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: The Theophilus

“I think we have the better evidence of Mt St Helens where we have all kinds of stuff: trees buried inverted in many strata of soil, massive errosion, rapid fossilization, layers of soil that look amazingly like the alleged “billions of years” claimed everywhere else. Much of speculative historical science was debunked in the early summer of 1980”

—Any first year geology student would easily discern that the strata laid down by Mt St Helens was from a single volcanic eruption, even if they were unaware of the 1980 eruption. Many other examples of such layering was long known in other parts of the world. It’s nothing but various layers of volcanic dust; they look nothing like, say, the layers seen in the Grand Canyon.


30 posted on 06/25/2010 8:14:11 PM PDT by goodusername
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

Explain what you said.


31 posted on 06/25/2010 8:17:25 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: dr_lew
"Well, you referred to an “imaginary” ice dam, and these are a well established feature of the late ice age."

You misrepresent the post.

I said, "The 'ice dam', however, is purely imaginary."

I did not say, "The ice dam, however, is purely "imaginary"."

In order to move the imaginary 'ice dams' of the size necessary to create the scablands into the realm of 'well established feature', someone must have observed them? Anyone? Anyone at all Doc?

"It’s interesting that when Harlan Bretz advocated formation of the scablands by a catastrophic flood, his arguments were not accepted. Largely, one might presume, because they smacked of diluvialism, but ostensibly because no one could “imagine” how such a flood might have occurred."

So one imagination is accepted while another is rejected because it smacks of a position that is unpopular 'a priori' among those who have declared themselves worthy to judge imaginations? How utterly 'scientific'.

"It was many years later that independent lines of investigation led to evidence for the draining of a large glacial lake, and this reveresed the tide for Bretz’s reputation, fortunately still in his lifetime, but unfortunately very late in his career."

Yeah, that's kinda how science 'works'. What is ridiculed today is accepted next week as long as an explanation can be concocted that smacks of currently accepted opinion. Great stuff.

32 posted on 06/25/2010 9:03:46 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

so ... you don’t believe in the ice age


33 posted on 06/25/2010 9:05:20 PM PDT by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan
Yeah, that's kinda how science 'works'. What is ridiculed today is accepted next week as long as an explanation can be concocted that smacks of currently accepted opinion. Great stuff.

This is a great example of something, but not of cogent criticism.
34 posted on 06/25/2010 9:09:12 PM PDT by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: dr_lew

So... you aren’t able to answer my post but must misrepresent my position.

You aren’t a ‘scientist’ are you?


35 posted on 06/25/2010 9:09:36 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: aruanan
"This is a great example of something, but not of cogent criticism."

That was a great example of something, but not of cogent criticism.

36 posted on 06/25/2010 9:12:08 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan
You aren’t a ‘scientist’ are you?

I am Joe Science himself!

37 posted on 06/25/2010 9:14:54 PM PDT by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: dr_lew
"I am Joe Science himself!"

Yes, that much was obvious.

38 posted on 06/25/2010 9:18:59 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: GourmetDan

Just as it’s obvious that you don’t believe in the Ice Age.

Go ahead, say it! Why all this posturing?


39 posted on 06/25/2010 9:42:21 PM PDT by dr_lew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: goodusername
It’s nothing but various layers of volcanic dust;

Yeah, just volcanic dust. That 680 million cubic yards of dirt and mud just vaporized without a trace. And liquifaction and sedimentary layering only works in the laboratory. Heavier materials don't ever sort in the wild. (sigh)

40 posted on 06/25/2010 10:07:38 PM PDT by The Theophilus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: DManA

Or don’t. I really don’t care.


41 posted on 06/26/2010 6:17:04 AM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: dr_lew
"Just as it’s obvious that you don’t believe in the Ice Age."

That would be you misrepresenting the issue, Joe Science, but don't let reality intrude upon your fantasy. You're just trying to shift the discussion away from the fact that your 'ice dam' is imaginary.

"Go ahead, say it! Why all this posturing?"

No better arguments for your imaginary 'ice dam' than to accuse me of the thing you yourself do? I'm shocked, shocked Joe Science!

42 posted on 06/26/2010 7:32:16 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: The Theophilus

“Yeah, just volcanic dust. That 680 million cubic yards of dirt and mud just vaporized without a trace. And liquifaction and sedimentary layering only works in the laboratory. Heavier materials don’t ever sort in the wild. (sigh)”

—I’m pretty sure that was meant as sarcasm, but I have no idea why the sarcasm since no one ever claimed such silly things.
But anyway, the only layers I’m aware of that were created at Mt St Helens are ones such as these:
http://www.creationism.org/articles/nelson1.htm
Which, as I said (and contrary to the claims of the site) any first year geology student would easily discern were from a single eruption and created in a short period of time. They’re created by volcanic ash, and other examples of this were well known before Mt St Helens, such as Cathedral Rock in Oregon.
If you were referring to something different, I’d be glad to take a look.


43 posted on 06/26/2010 8:42:27 AM PDT by goodusername
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: DManA


The Washington state scablands were also created in a short time at the end
of the last ice age when an enormous volume of water broke through an ice dam.

In case you’ve not seen it...
PBS’s “NOVA” had a great episode on the creation of The Scablands.

It was very interesting (IIRC) how it was explained that supercooled
water, blasting through small cracks in an ice-dam can still create
enough friction/heat to cause the ice-dam to fail.

Also, the moment in which one academician realized he knew how the
scablands formed was great. Definitely a “eureka” moment.

Website for the episode:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/scablands.html


44 posted on 06/26/2010 8:58:07 AM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain


Canyon Carved in Just Three Days in Texas Flood: Insight Into Ancient
Flood Events on Earth and Mars

Although a different sort of geological phenomenon, History Channel
had an episode on Niagara Falls (and the Great Lakes?).

It was noted that although the erosion that keeps moving Niagra Falls
“upstream” is relatively slow, there is one point at which the erosion will be
MUCH faster over a few miles (IIRC) due to the weakness of some underlying
stone formations.

(I’m not a geologist, nor do I play one on TV.)


45 posted on 06/26/2010 9:04:35 AM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: VOA

I remember visiting there as a kid in the 60’s. They called one area the dry falls and the story presented was that there had been a water fall there with a volume greater than Niagara. So the idea that vast amounts of water had flowed through there is not a new one.


46 posted on 06/26/2010 11:06:07 AM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: skeptoid

It is a great book...(Walt Brown’s book). I have bought and given away several of them and have used it while teaching. Strongly recommend reading it.

God Bless


47 posted on 06/26/2010 11:35:55 AM PDT by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: BereanBrain
the evolutionary, old earth, “we know everything” crowd.

Been awhile since I posted last, what happened to that bunch?


Most were banned for being scientifically literate. Most others simple left on their own accord. It had something to do with the powers at FR stating that science is akin to satanism. or something.
48 posted on 07/06/2010 12:19:32 PM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson