Skip to comments.Canyon Carved in Just Three Days in Texas Flood: Insight Into Ancient Flood Events on Earth and Mars
Posted on 06/25/2010 3:10:04 PM PDT by BereanBrain
You gotta read the article before you start arguing with me. P.S. it's NOT from a creationist site. It's from Science Daily.
(Excerpt) Read more at sciencedaily.com ...
When speculative historical sciences meet reality.
Thought we’d change the title to what was published instead of, “Think the Grand Canyon *must* have been formed over millions of years? Think again.”
The Washington state scablands were also created in a short time at the end of the last ice age when an enormous volume of water broke through an ice dam.
This event seems to support the Grand Canyon section Walt Brown's book.
(The entire book is online)
If these guys want to see big rock sheets and boulders move, then they should consider looking at the Devils River watershed in SW Texas after a 2 inch rain.
“When speculative historical sciences meet reality.”
That’s a meeting that always leaves a mark.
thanks moderator! And I was expecting to be bombarded by the evolutionary, old earth, “we know everything” crowd.
Been awhile since I posted last, what happened to that bunch? Maybe they are asleep at the keyboard, or have evolved into a higher lifeform. ;)
The enormous volumes of water are probably correct.
The 'ice dam', however, is purely imaginary.
Note: This is a cut and paste of a drive by insult I just used on another thread. It isn’t original so it has been discounted 30% just to insult you.
“Well, I wouldn’t want your Friday spoiled.
1. You smell like moldy cheese.
2. Flowers wilt when you pass.
3. Children have nightmares about you.
4. Women enter convents rather than date you.
5. Dogs would rather lick cats than be petted by you.
6. You are the only person Mother Teresa wanted to slap.
7. Beggars on the street give you change to go away.
8. The Jehovah’s Witnesses skip your house.
9. Hannibal Lector became a vegetarian because of you
10. Al Qaida,the Taliban, CAIR, NAMBLA, the ACLU, PETA, the DNC, and the Canadian Baby Seal Clubbing Association all rejected your membership applications because they thought if they were associated with you, people would hate them.
I got nothing to add to this thread. I was just cruising through looking for news and heard your cry for help.
I’m made that way. I was there for you. Have a fun Friday anyway!
Irish Catholic :-)”
Cool post, by the way. I have missed the Church of Evolution myself lately. They must be holding bake sales for their summer field trip to the Darwin Museum. That or they are busy kicking the snot out of an Intelligent Design scientist they jumped in the parking garage of the Smithsonian.
You’re welcome and I enjoyed the article, too.
Some of the canyon's rocks are punched with holes like Swiss cheese, and the fossils of worms and other ancient wildlife are everywhere. The rocks, typical of the limestone buried throughout central Texas, date back "111 million years, plus or minus a few hundred thousand years," Ward said.
Six three-toed dinosaur footprints offer evidence of a two-legged carnivore strolling along the water. The footprints were temporarily covered with sand to protect them as workers reinforced the spillway, but they'll be uncovered again eventually, Rhoad said.
ahh! I feel better now. I am so used to the abuse, I have come to expect the ad-hominym attacks from the church of evolution!
works 4 me
That’s pretty impressive.
In the span of six weeks, the power of the water chiseled out 21 feet of BEDROCK for a distance of more than 2 kilometers.
One can easily ask, what COULD it (that same power) do in a period of seven to ten months - the approximate length of time of Noah’s flood.
I’m here for you, man.
“The ‘ice dam’, however, is purely imaginary.”
More so than your invisible friend in the sky?
The question is not one of water carving bedrock - it clearly happens. My question in this case would be, what is the bedrock? Judging from the photograph, I'd say limestone, a water soluble rock. If you want to know how a valley is formed, you don't just look at the valley. You also look at the sediments that were removed.
LOL. Great comeback!
From the article:
“The abrasion of rock by sediment-loaded waters — while less significant in terms of the overall formation of the canyon — produced other features, like sculpted walls, plunge pools at the bases of the waterfalls, and teardrop-shaped sediment islands. The sediment islands are particularly significant, Lamb says, because “these are features we see on Earth and on Mars in areas where we think large flow events have occurred. It’s nice that here we’re seeing some of the same features that we’ve interpreted elsewhere as evidence of large flow events.”
—These are not things seen with the Grand Canyon. So the features of this massive flood match up well with features that we believe to be past massive floods, but don’t match up with features such as the Grand Canyon. Go figure. :-) So I don’t why this story would be used as evidence that the Grand Canyon may have formed from a massive flood.
Canyons formed quickly by flood water are shaped differently from slower formed canyons as well. Slowly formed canyons have a “V” shape to them. Here’s pics of the Grand Canyon:
Quickly formed canyons - such as the one formed by the eruption of Mt St Helens have a “U” shape to them. Look at figure 7:
(And compare to the pic someone posted above)
And, oh yeah, You smell like moldy cheese! :-)
I remember reading another canyon was created parallel to Engineers Canyon. From what I remember, the parallel canyon formed in a day due to mudflow when Mt. Saint Helens erupted. The difference might be in the type of material being moved... can’t remember.
You don’t believe there was an ice age?
Is that what I said?
Well, you referred to an “imaginary” ice dam, and these are a well established feature of the late ice age.
It’s interesting that when Harlan Bretz advocated formation of the scablands by a catastrophic flood, his arguments were not accepted. Largely, one might presume, because they smacked of diluvialism, but ostensibly because no one could “imagine” how such a flood might have occurred.
It was many years later that independent lines of investigation led to evidence for the draining of a large glacial lake, and this reveresed the tide for Bretz’s reputation, fortunately still in his lifetime, but unfortunately very late in his career.
“I think we have the better evidence of Mt St Helens where we have all kinds of stuff: trees buried inverted in many strata of soil, massive errosion, rapid fossilization, layers of soil that look amazingly like the alleged “billions of years” claimed everywhere else. Much of speculative historical science was debunked in the early summer of 1980”
—Any first year geology student would easily discern that the strata laid down by Mt St Helens was from a single volcanic eruption, even if they were unaware of the 1980 eruption. Many other examples of such layering was long known in other parts of the world. It’s nothing but various layers of volcanic dust; they look nothing like, say, the layers seen in the Grand Canyon.
Explain what you said.
You misrepresent the post.
I said, "The 'ice dam', however, is purely imaginary."
I did not say, "The ice dam, however, is purely "imaginary"."
In order to move the imaginary 'ice dams' of the size necessary to create the scablands into the realm of 'well established feature', someone must have observed them? Anyone? Anyone at all Doc?
"Its interesting that when Harlan Bretz advocated formation of the scablands by a catastrophic flood, his arguments were not accepted. Largely, one might presume, because they smacked of diluvialism, but ostensibly because no one could imagine how such a flood might have occurred."
So one imagination is accepted while another is rejected because it smacks of a position that is unpopular 'a priori' among those who have declared themselves worthy to judge imaginations? How utterly 'scientific'.
"It was many years later that independent lines of investigation led to evidence for the draining of a large glacial lake, and this reveresed the tide for Bretzs reputation, fortunately still in his lifetime, but unfortunately very late in his career."
Yeah, that's kinda how science 'works'. What is ridiculed today is accepted next week as long as an explanation can be concocted that smacks of currently accepted opinion. Great stuff.
so ... you don’t believe in the ice age
So... you aren’t able to answer my post but must misrepresent my position.
You aren’t a ‘scientist’ are you?
That was a great example of something, but not of cogent criticism.
I am Joe Science himself!
Yes, that much was obvious.
Just as it’s obvious that you don’t believe in the Ice Age.
Go ahead, say it! Why all this posturing?
Yeah, just volcanic dust. That 680 million cubic yards of dirt and mud just vaporized without a trace. And liquifaction and sedimentary layering only works in the laboratory. Heavier materials don't ever sort in the wild. (sigh)
Or don’t. I really don’t care.
That would be you misrepresenting the issue, Joe Science, but don't let reality intrude upon your fantasy. You're just trying to shift the discussion away from the fact that your 'ice dam' is imaginary.
"Go ahead, say it! Why all this posturing?"
No better arguments for your imaginary 'ice dam' than to accuse me of the thing you yourself do? I'm shocked, shocked Joe Science!
“Yeah, just volcanic dust. That 680 million cubic yards of dirt and mud just vaporized without a trace. And liquifaction and sedimentary layering only works in the laboratory. Heavier materials don’t ever sort in the wild. (sigh)”
—I’m pretty sure that was meant as sarcasm, but I have no idea why the sarcasm since no one ever claimed such silly things.
But anyway, the only layers I’m aware of that were created at Mt St Helens are ones such as these:
Which, as I said (and contrary to the claims of the site) any first year geology student would easily discern were from a single eruption and created in a short period of time. They’re created by volcanic ash, and other examples of this were well known before Mt St Helens, such as Cathedral Rock in Oregon.
If you were referring to something different, I’d be glad to take a look.
The Washington state scablands were also created in a short time at the end
of the last ice age when an enormous volume of water broke through an ice dam.
In case you’ve not seen it...
PBS’s “NOVA” had a great episode on the creation of The Scablands.
It was very interesting (IIRC) how it was explained that supercooled
water, blasting through small cracks in an ice-dam can still create
enough friction/heat to cause the ice-dam to fail.
Also, the moment in which one academician realized he knew how the
scablands formed was great. Definitely a “eureka” moment.
Website for the episode:
Canyon Carved in Just Three Days in Texas Flood: Insight Into Ancient
Flood Events on Earth and Mars
Although a different sort of geological phenomenon, History Channel
had an episode on Niagara Falls (and the Great Lakes?).
It was noted that although the erosion that keeps moving Niagra Falls
“upstream” is relatively slow, there is one point at which the erosion will be
MUCH faster over a few miles (IIRC) due to the weakness of some underlying
(I’m not a geologist, nor do I play one on TV.)
I remember visiting there as a kid in the 60’s. They called one area the dry falls and the story presented was that there had been a water fall there with a volume greater than Niagara. So the idea that vast amounts of water had flowed through there is not a new one.
It is a great book...(Walt Brown’s book). I have bought and given away several of them and have used it while teaching. Strongly recommend reading it.