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To: Mad Dawg
Are you now saying a marriage between brother and sister would be valid? Or a vow made while drunk or under duress or threat?

Are you saying that the Catholic church would marry them and impart sacramental grace to them?

Of course the absence of a Bible text enabling Apostolic succession is not, to me, a conclusive argument.

If there is no apostolic succession taught by Jesus or the writers under inspiration then it is a man made tradition without any infallible support.

But am I to understand you to say that once there were written Scriptures Apostolic forgiveness, etc. was not necessary?

You assume that is what the scripture is talking about in context

Mat 18:17 — And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 — Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

cross reference with 1 Cr 5 we see ecclesiastical application ... we see that excommunication was taught and supported in scripture..we never see an example that would lead us to think anything otherwise. There was no individual confession until 1215 or so . If this was to be a practice of the new church Christ would have given the command as He did at the last passover.. to" do this " And we would have sen it modeled/practiced in the new church

I Believe Jesus was giving the church authority and a structure..

The forgiveness of sin is held only in the hands of the judge

84 posted on 07/05/2010 5:37:31 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Are you saying that the Catholic church would marry them [a brother and sister] and impart sacramental grace to them?

Well, if the price was right ...

Of course not, not on purpose. And an annulment is a finding that no "sacramental grace" was imparted because, in this example, there wasn't "fit matter" for the sacrament. In our view sacramental grace could not be imparted. In the more troubling examples, it's usually a matter of defective intention.

If there is no apostolic succession taught by Jesus or the writers under inspiration then it is a man made tradition without any infallible support.

That's one opinion. Another is that the very term "apostle" means that the authority of the one sending is given to the one(s) sent so that just as a principle is bound by the acts of his agent, so God in Christ gives those he 'sends' binding authority.

And, of course, we would say (I know you know this; I'm just being thorough) that in addition to the canonical written tradition there is tradition handed down other ways, which is not necessarily thereby "of men." It didn't take very long after the Ascension for the idea of apostolic authority to jell. Certainly Ignatius of Antioch, who is said to have died before 118, and who knew Polycarp who knew John seems to assume it.

You assume that is what the scripture is talking about in context

Mat 18:17

Actually I was not thinking so much of that section as I was of the commissioning (note the root word "mission" - sending) in the upper room, John 20:21-23.

85 posted on 07/05/2010 6:17:00 PM PDT by Mad Dawg ("Be kind to everyone you meet, for every person is fighting a great battle" -- St. Ephraim)
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