Posted on 07/07/2010 8:01:37 AM PDT by Frumanchu
“
Like his dear Lord Jesus, John Calvin has often been wounded in the house of his friends.”
So true. I have differences with John Wesley and Admiral Booth and Billy Graham on certain points of doctrine; but I love them and am grateful for their work and would never seek to hinder them.
Calvin is a lightning rod. I guess the truth hurts.
As for Servetus, who is instantly mentioned in any Calvin oriented post, let’s assume Calvin was completely and totally wrong about him and was accessory to murder (there is debate there, but I won’t even get into it).
It does not affect the truth or falsehood of Calvin’s Institutes; at worst, it proves he was a sinner; which he himself admits.
If you can’t be an accessory murderer and a great theologian (and I say this with caution, because I don’t believe Calvin to be a murderer), then don’t read the Psalms, or pay attention to anything David did. He was a murderer, and also partook in the killing of thousands of men. Yet he was also a man after God’s own heart. Hard to reconcile, but true.
If you only accept a person’s theology if he is sinless, you can’t accept anyone’s theology.
It is true there is an anti-Jewish bias there. Luther’s writings are also hard to read in that area. I don’t think some papal bulls are fun to read, either.
For that matter, Jewish theology is quite unkind to Gentiles.
There was a great deal of anti-Jewish sentiment in the middle ages. I don’t excuse it. But it is not unique to any one theologian.
And it does not make all of the doctrinal assertions of these men wrong.
I do.
I also believe in the priesthood of the believer.
So, we don’t BURN those we disagree with.
“I have met *lots* of true blue Presbyterians - those who are Calvinists first and Christians second almost *always* hate the Jew, and rail against Israel.”
That is ridiculous. I know at least 500 presbyterians, have been to presbyterian conferences and seminars, occupy presbyterian web sites, get presbyterian publications -
I have never heard any hatred expressed of Jews. Not once. Never have I heard anyone rail against Israel. I have also frequently heard and participated in prayer for the nation of Israel.
Maybe people should spend less time reading institutes, articles, papal bulls, commentaries, etc and MORE time reading the bible.
That way, they can't have their ears tickled by words of men.
And by the way, I love all the ad - homonym attacks....they reveal the nature of the attacker.
“Do you equate anti-semitism with homophobia?”
Of course not, where would you get that idea. Ant-semitism is hatred of people based on their ethnicity. Homophobia is modern term made up about people who oppose that which is against nature and abominable. My point is, the concept of separating state and religion is not some monolithic Christian view held by all Christians at all times. Witchcraft, sorcery, homosexuality, even alcohol, have all been the subject of laws supported by people for “religious” reasons. I don’t see why Calvin gets singled out on this subject. In his day idolatry/blasphemy was against the laws of the land.
This is why i quit attending a Presbyterian church. Too many comments from too many people who grew up in the Presby church re: Israel vs Palestinians.
It’s like watching CNN. The Palestinian bias is worn on the sleeve.
At least that was the experience I had, and was the defining factor for me to withdraw from communion with that congregation.
Yes, and if my neighbor was a homosexual, and I knew it, I would not induce some third party to turn him in, if the law was unjust. (like death).
Right and Wrong are NOT relative to days of the week, or even centuries.
There is no grading on a curve — compassion should be a part of the human condition.
Burning someone to death IS horrible, and WAS horrible.
it was WRONG then and is WRONG now.
Do you believe that one can be in the priesthood of believers while simultaneously denying the Trinity?
Wonderful thread, Fru. And it’s great to see you posting. I’ll be back here this afternoon. We need more threads like this one.
And by the way, I love all the ad - homonym attacks....they reveal the nature of the attacker.
Couple things here:
1. It's rather presumptuous of you to just assume that we spend all or even the majority of our time reading other materials and not reading the Bible.
2. It's ad hominem, not ad-homonym...though I do love the fact that the error was itself a homonym (at least in the loose sense).
3. The complaint about ad hominem attacks rings pretty hollow when it is itself serving as an ad hominem attack of sorts. Thus far we've all addressed the content of your arguments, not attacked your character or tried to otherwise dismiss your arguments based on some personal quality of yours. In accusing us incorrectly of ad hominem attacks you are yourself engaging in one by attempting to dismiss our arguments on the basis of "the nature of the attacker"...the textbook definition of an ad hominem attack.
Perhaps that's why Calvin and several others petitioned the authorities to have Servetus beheaded instead as a more humane sentence. Just a thought...
Good to be seen! :) Good to see you too, Doc. Can’t promise how much I’ll be around, but I wouldn’t mind seeing more of these threads as well. I’ll see if I can dig up some more from the archives!
Burning someone to death IS horrible, and WAS horrible. it was WRONG then and is WRONG now.
Earlier post #14: Why do I need anything other than the Bible? What happend to Sola Scriptura?
Appealing to your post #14, please justify your views in post #28 by citing the verses that support this moral imperative.
Exodus 1:17
why are you so focused on WHO is in the priesthood? That is for God to determine, not man.
We are to fearfully and with great care, work out our salvation, not by depending on other men, but reasoning with the scriptures.
Phil 2:12
Acts 17:17
Allow me to paraphrase the article, in verse:
MMMM MMMMM MMMMM
GENEVA’S OWN JOHN CALVIN
HE BELIEVED WE MUST DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO DRAW PEOPLE TO GOD
MMMMM MMMMM MMMMM
GENEVA’S OWN JOHN CALVIN
HE URGED HIS PEOPLE TO WORK TOP WIN THE WHOLE WORLD TO GOD THROUGH TUMULT AND TOIL
MMMMM MMMMMM MMMMMMM (Continue ad nauseum)
Thus is born the roots of “replacement theology”. Unfortunately, although even John Calvin as against it, today it is far too common in the “Calvinistic” circles.
Trotting out all the lame old canards, aren't you?
I think one thing that has happened in America is we tend to look at historic events in light of todays political and social system
At the time of the reformation heresy was punishable by death.. because there were religious states, a heretic was our equivalent of being a traitor . That was a crime that was punished by death.
They took their faith seriously .
If we look at that time period we see the pope sent out men to find and kill Luther.. we see men burned to death because of their faith (reference foxs book of martyrs )
It is not fair to judge an act then by todays standards..
Part of the story of Calvin and Servetus is that Servetus was a Unitarian preaching against the trinity and wanting to debate Calvin.. He made his desire clear.. Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva as he would most likely be tried for treason ...Serevetus ignored the warning and came..
He was tried by a court in Geneva and sentenced to death . Calvin tried to have the sentence changed to beheading because it was swift.
I think we also need to note that Rome also desired to kill Servetus for heresy
Today we look at that as an unthinkable prosecution and death...
In a few hundreds years people will look at some of our decisions and call them inhumane or horrible..
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.