Posted on 07/15/2010 7:46:51 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
So you are using the long held LDS tactic of parsing simple words like "works" into the ground as part of your "work" in supporting a non biblical cult that slanders Christ through its very existence but I am the one attacking...
Interesting...
Expected...
As far as debate, refer to my initial post.
Actually, "no" -- there is tremendous limit to your so-called "free agency." Why, for example, might you want to reject the following "standard works" passages on this subject?
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (Jesus, John 8:34)
Did this "slave" condition automatically "go away" for everybody upon Christ dying on the cross? No...there's no way anybody could come away reading Romans 6 or Ephesians 2 and make such a conclusion. (Joe Smith simply rejected much of what the apostle Paul taught)
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins...God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgression... (Eph. 2:1,4-5)
Therefore, if you look at even Alma 42:9 through the eyes of the New Testament, we see that "the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal..."
(I don't think spiritually dead people are "free" -- do you?)
You call the Lds First Vision where we're all labeled "corrupt" and unjoinable and heart drifters and embracing 0% creeds who honor our Lord (vv. 18-20 of Joseph Smith - History) as winsomely expressive of "desir[ing] camaraderie..."???
Or labeling us all as "apostates" -- same Q?
Or implying that we're part of the false & dead church (D&C 1:30)? - Same Q?
Or that we fall under the same umbrella as the "church of the devil?" (1 Nephi 14:9-10)
If this is your "let's-sweep-them-off-their-feet" idea of displaying "camaraderie," then please, please don't try this online, texting or on the phone...trying to "winsomely" win a date...
Well, #1, I won't try to pretend I know how every Mormon applies grace vs. merit to their lives...but we can take a look at Book of Mormon passages and make a few surface conclusions:
Q. According to the Book of Mormon, who initiates grace -- man or God?
A. Man
Q. Where is that found?
A. Helaman 12:24 and 2 Nephi 25:23
And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (Hel. 12:24)
If grace is "merited" "according to...works" -- then, sorry, "grace" is no longer "free." (Just try teaching your kids to merit their birthday & Christmas "gifts" "according to their works.")
...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. (2 Nephi 25:23)
And here, grace only kicks in like some afterburner on a rocket after you've used all your own fuel to get to a certain location. Tell us, 'Torch: What Mormon would actually have the gall to say to God, "Lord, I've done EVERYTHING I could possibly do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally. Mentally. Relationally. Etc." ???
Indeed...
What is even more ironic is that taken at face value the LDS now desires to be “Whores of Babylon” as well...
Indeed...
What is even more ironic is that taken at face value the LDS now desires to be “Whores of Babylon” as well...
Show me in scriptures that any of the 12 disciples were baptised, or the 120 or any of Jesus' followers. Baptism is based upon association and symbology - a type representing our dying and rising with Christ - and as a confession of our faith in him. Further, you need to clairify the baptism of Jesus from that of John, if you can.
Yes and no. Yes, any denominational label is no guarantee if we know the true Christ. And yes, the personal relationship is the key (John 17:3). But there is another Christ (2 Cor. 11:4). Claiming a "relationship" with just any 'ole "Christ" won't do.
At some point, any given cultic or world religion description of "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" is going to depart from ascribing the essence of the reality of who Christ is.
Example: You get to know two people online, Abe and Jill. In both cases, you also hear from a second party who "fills you in" on the key aspects of who Abe and Jill are.
But later, too late, you found out your source on "Abe" was so far off-base in describing who "Abe" really was -- and the person representing himself as "Abe" to you mis represented himself as well -- you realize, "I never knew the real Abe. I thought I did. But I didn't know him; and I didn't really allow him to know me."
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Well, however "inhomogenous" you want to portray Christian denominations to be, it's quite a bit less than you think on both core biblical teachings as well as simply taking what the Bible says at face value in allowing God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to describe Himself.
And, actually, on this point, the Mormon church's PR dept. should be 100% ashamed for misportraying us. What do I mean? Well, let me provide a relevant example to this discussion: Lds.org put out a news release Nov. 21, 2006...Here's a brief excerpt:
However, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, evangelicals and a host of other faiths believe in Jesus and claim the Bible as their own, yet all consider themselves separate and distinct faiths. (Source: http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/use-of-the-word-mormon-in-news-reports)
Uh...no we don't ("consider [our]selves separate and distinct faiths" -- at least, not most Christians and at least not among the Protestant groups...and even then, an overwhelming number of Protestants see their Catholic brothers and sisters as embracing the same faith).
And if you're going to use the line, "Just take a look at all the evangelical denominations and tell me the all understand Christ the same way. They don't..." as to be somehow comparable to the Grand Canyon differences of the Mormon christ to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, you've greatly fallen short on this argument. (I mean under that definition, even a married Mormon couple wouldn't necessarily have the same "Mormon" view of Christ...and at some point with this line of thinking, Christ becomes extremely up for grabs for "any ole view of Him will do in corresponding to reality")
Only an LDS member would view baptism as work... [ejonesie22]
Blow replied with THIS: Excuse you. Did you not read how I used the word? I tried clearing this up once for you, but you are being dishonest now. Maybe you should consult a dictionary and the religious sense of the word rather than degrading it to terms understood by laymen.
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Ok how is E being dishonest. He is correct. Baptism is NOT a work, especially one leading to salvation. It is a SYMBOLIC outward profession of an inward change.
Baptism is not something we DO it is a way of professing our faith.
And it is wrong for a person to claim E is being dishonest in that post. He in NO way degrades the term for laymen.
BUT LDS SOP, deflect attack and change the goal posts.
Sigh.
Enquiring minds.....
My belief is that trying to have personal relationship with Christ makes you a Christian, however misguided your church or doctrine may be. [torch]
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Ummm....NO.
First there is no TRY, either you have a personal relationship with Christ or you don’t.
Secondly, doctrien DOES matter, how we view Christ affects our relationship with Him.
As Godzilla once said “A false Gospel will lead to a false sense of salvation”.
I will not stand idly by and allow the LDS to call themselves Christians while at the same time calling ME an ‘apostate’ and part of the whore of babylon and insulting MY Lord and MY God by turning Him into a ‘created being’ who had to earn His Godhood.
Bottom line - as long as the LDS have the Christ they do (and the Christology they do) then they are NOT Christians.
Just because your mother says she is a car, doesn’t make her one.
Just take a look at all the evangelical denominations and tell me the all understand Christ the same way [torch]
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Ok, they all understand Christ the same way. THe person work and nature of Christ is the SAME for all Christian religions. Period.
No problem there. Next?
Good question. Also the stark difference between the Cross and the Garden is that there were ministering angels in the Garden and NOT on the Cross.
If Christ was doing the in the garden, then God ‘cheated’ and was mean for sending angels to minister to Christ during the sin bearing but NOT during the death on the Cross.
Jesus Christ is the Lord. I said that and will shout it from the rooftops.
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”
1 Corinthians 12:3
Who is Heavenly Father?
Welcome to my world. CTR.
First off, thanks for the replies and thoughtful points. You say there is no “TRY,” but that is equivalent to saying there is no gray area, just black and white. We are all at different levels and a personal relationship with Christ must develop like the mustard seed. It grows and becomes perfect.
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