Posted on 08/02/2010 3:13:20 AM PDT by markomalley
I'm honestly not sure where I'd place groups like the "emergent churches" or even the Warren / Osteen style megachurches.
"emergent" == recrudescent protestant social gospel liberalism. hook, line & sinker. Most likely of the three groups to take issue with the Nicene Creed (always a bad sign).
Osteen == "Word Faith Lite"
Warren == pragmatism. Don't step in the "leadership".
It doesn't look like there'd be much interaction between these. Scary, but there is.
I may see these more clearly for being closer to them. If the distinctions don't make sense, ask, and I'll try to clarify.
Probably because that terminology was never used by Christians until a handful of years ago. ... The way evangelicals speak about “Having a personal relationship with Christ” has nothing to do with the Bible (the terminology is entirely foreign to scripture), has no place in tradition and seems to have been invented only recently in the last few decades.
That's one reason I try not to talk that way. Everybody has a "personal relationship with Jesus". For some He's saviour. For others, judge.
Better to talk of repentance and faith, of the dying of the old self dying and the coming to life of the new. Work on faith as knowledge, assent and trust.
Well, you might want to ping Alex to those fine comments. He is the one who built the above taxonomy, not me. As a Catholic who has not studied comparative religions all that much, I am uniquely unqualified to build a taxonomy of the various denominations that exist in the non-Catholic / non-Orthodox sphere.
Having said that, I will be happy to bookmark and use whatever you all come up with.
Some very good, orthodox Catholic thought in the above sentence...IMHO. You ever read any Teresa of Avila?
For once you and I agree entirely.
Oh, hell just froze over!
Some very good, orthodox Catholic thought in the above sentence.
Interesting.
You ever read any Teresa of Avila?No. Have you ever read the Heidelberg Catechism? Lately I've been reading it devotionally, to shape and inform the soul. Astonishingly carefully crafted and pastoral.
Wednesday, May 12, 2010Progression of a Convert
Some of you may remember that old poster from the 1970's of some guy on a drug trip (no, this was NOT in my room - it was in a friend's room), where it showed his progression from "normal" to "wasted". For some reason that popped in my head the other day.
Since my return to the Faith in 1998, I've gone through all of the stages shown here, and would guess many others have also. Things are better than they were 12 years ago, to be sure, but sometimes panel # 6 still applies.
I went to a Catholic school till 9th grade. Was an active member of my church (Altar boy, CCD etc). went to a Catholic University and attended mass there (at least sometimes) and never once did anyone even suggest reading the bible. Not once.
I didn't even realize what the bible was until my fiance gave me one.
I am uniquely unqualified to build a taxonomy of the various denominations that exist in the non-Catholic / non-Orthodox sphere.
As I am poorly qualified to put a scalpel of classification to your world. I know, by watching the conversations here if nothing else, you-all have your liberals, you traditionalists, your syncretists in the back woods of Central America, your nutters of various stripes, your purveyors of liturgical novelties and dire music.
Just like us. And, just like us, I realize that what's true of the Roman Catholic oddballs isn't necessarily true of you, and doesn't get to the heart of the differences.
Well, fortunately, that much at least has changed a bit. My daughter's Catholic school required the kids to have a Bible since the 4th grade. Sacred Scripture was one of her HS classes (religion in all 4 years, but one of those years was specially dedicated toward study of the Bible).
What you tell me with your "Catholic" university doesn't shock me in the least bit. In fact, you will find folks agreeing with you on the dismal state of many of those schools (did you ever hear of the Land of Lakes agreement back in the 60s? It was a decision to divest ownership of virtually all universities owned by religious orders and turn over that ownership to private nonprofits, investing control in boards of trustees who were majority laity. That decision absolutely decimated the majority of Catholic universities in the 60s and 70s)
So what you're saying is no surprise to me. It distresses me...but not the first time I've heard it and, unfortunately, won't be the last time.
BTW, on the subject of indulgences for Sacred Scripture, here is the text of the 1968 Enchiridion Indulgentiarum:
50. Reading of Sacred Scripture (Sacrae Scripturae lectio)
A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.
A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour.
And from the current (2002) one:
30
Sacrae Scripturae lectio§ 1.59 Plenaria indulgentia conceditur christifideli qui Sacram Scripturam, iuxta textum a competenti auctoritate adprobatum, cum veneratione divino eloquio debita et ad modum lectionis spiritalis, per dimidiam saltem horam legerit; si per minus tempus id egerit indulgentia erit partialis.
§ 2. Quod si rationabili de causa quis legere non valeat, indulgentia, plenaria vel partialis prout supra, conceditur, si textus ipse Sacrae Scripturae, vel alio legente vel ope instrumentorum, quae « video » vel « audio » vocantur, percipitur.
(Sorry, but the English language version of that text is available hard copy only)
I have to say that US Catholic history has never been revealed, nor world Catholic history either, at least at the parish level, but instead we are left to 1940’s black and white movies to get even a glimpse of how things used to be. Today, inside the Church, we have a flock full of minimalists who have been liberally “shepherded” by other minimalists, all protestants in the truest sense of the word. God knows our plight and our longings, and how with all our heart we are holding on by virtue of the apologetics crowd who have been sent by God as angels to inspire us, encourage us and who are soldiering us up. Our transformation from sterility to heart throbing knowledge of the Great Faith is becoming, from a trickle to a river, a wave of transformation inspite of dull and dispirited priests, whom we pray for.
His moral theology was not liberal, and I am not implying that.
One big problem the Catholic church has is that while there are volumes on what it officially believes, in practice there is very little you are actually called to believe. I could walk into a typical Roman Catholic parish and be considered a very conservative Catholic, with out changing what I believe in. So could a great many non Catholic Freepers.
The Catholics we see here on FR are very unique, in that for the most part they know what they believe, and why. That is not very common.
It actually is probably not quite as uncommon as you would think (I know many in my own parish who are far more knowledgeable than I and they aren't FReepers in any regard).
But in the main I would, unfortunately agree with you. As I said in #25, above,
I would doubt that there would be a Catholic on FR who would disagree with you. The level of catechesis both through CCD and in Catholic schools is appalling.The trouble is that this is the second, and, in some cases, the third generation who never have been educated in their own faith. And so parents have a hard time taking on their responsibilities as the primary educators of their children because they don't know either.
But let me ask you, though...is it really that much different in your typical Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, or Baptist congregation, though? Yes, I know that there are scholars in all of them and, absolutely, I would imagine that the level of understanding of doctrinal issues is far higher with FReepers than non-FReepers. But is Joe sit-in-the-pew-on-Sunday ___fill in the blank___ all THAT much different?
In my home town, my Lutheran parish was known for turning out kids who would know the catechism backwards and forwards (literally, before confirmation we had to stand before the congregation and answer each of Luther's small catechism questions). My current church is similar.
But that isn't the norm anymore. Most parents don't want to drill their kids on mountains of memory work. I hated it, but when my father in law died I was able to give the priest verses to look up off the top of my head. My wife loves to joke that I am the product of MoLu Bible education at its finest!
Which brings me to another point. Most Catholics, including priests and bishops, don't know the Bible that well. It was rather shocking to me that my inlaws priest didn't know some of the old stand bys for Psalms in the time of death. Not to mention what verses to read for the death of a farmer. My old Lutheran pastor could do that in his sleep, and so could most of my classmates.
Now I hear that is changing, but it is still shocking to me.
Can you say the Baltimore Catechism?
They really need to go back to that format...although the Didache series of Catholic religion textbooks (aimed to high schoolers) is pretty good as well. But the pablum that they gave my daughter in Elementary/Middle School...yuch. (Therefore, she got her real catechesis from Daddy...still isn't all that good, but head-and-shoulders above her peers)
Most Catholics, including priests and bishops, don't know the Bible that well. It was rather shocking to me that my inlaws priest didn't know some of the old stand bys for Psalms in the time of death.
Doesn't surprise me. I actually wonder how many priests ordained between 1970 and 1985 actually even pray the Office every day? (If they did, they'd read all 150 psalms every six weeks or so)
That generation of priests is more likely to be really scary to me. But the ones that I've seen cranked out since the early 90s are a whole lot better. And the ones I've gotten to know who were ordained in the past 5 years are, for the most part, truly holy men (YMMV). [Caveat: I'm looking at Mt St Mary's seminary in Emmitsburg MD and St Joseph's seminary in Yonkers NY for most of my first-hand experience...other seminaries may produce wildly different results]. And the ones I've met that are coming from Africa and India are just GREAT!!
Now if we could just get some more sisters like the Nashville Dominicans...
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