Posted on 08/18/2010 1:22:01 PM PDT by Normandy
Yeah... you not answering DIRECT questions!
How about that POLYGAMY command that is STILL MORMON DOCTRINE??
Why do you guys DISOBEY GOD about it?
Note: the above is a DIRECT QUESTION!
When there was just ONE physical body to go around?
You believe in a welfare....
What EVER is was; it caused her to be a PRESBYTERIAN (spit!) for YEARS!
I appreciate your concise, description of the LDS doctrine of exaltation. If I was in your place, I think I should be concerned as to why this doctrine has somehow managed to escape the Church for eighteen hundred years ...
Since the time of Christ, Christianity developed into a religion of many strands and differing doctrines — certainly there has not been a single united body of Christ from the time of Jesus.
The reason, I believe, is that with the death of the apostles (yes, I know about John), the original organization that was established by Jesus Christ became fragmented and corrupted, and lost the authority that Christ had given the apostles.
Despite this, many of the truths from God were preserved in the Bible and this has been a tremendous blessing to Christian who have been seeking for light and truth from God, and interestingly there have been Christians throughout the centuries who who have developed a belief in the deification of man (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis) not dissimilar to the LDS doctrine of exaltation.
Now since no one before the prophet Joe Smith followed this pattern, and since the prophet claims that he received this from an angel (Gal 1:8-9), and we know angels are “messengers”, and that messengers are sent, what must we say about the Father who hid these secrets for nearly two millennia, as hundreds of millions of people simply followed the talmud and apostolic letters and forfeited the “inheritance of our merciful and gracious Father”?
As far as people “forfeiting” their inheritance because they did not have access to the fullness of the gospel of Christ, I don’t believe God cuts anyone out. I would direct you to two sections in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants for more information:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/137
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/138
These sections refer to the mercies of God in judging all in perfect mercy and fairness according to their works, according to the desires of their hearts — and how he has provided a way for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth to receive it in the world to come.
What does this say about the Father? That he is merciful and just and has not abandoned any soul who has lived.
I don’t pretend to understand all his workings, but I do know that he has restored to the earth in these latter days the fullness of the gospel of Christ in order to bless the entire human race.
Normandy
I don’t pretend to understand all his workings, but I do know that he has restored to the earth in these latter days the fullness of the gospel of Christ in order to bless the entire human race.
____________________________________________________
Which is ???
Its what YOU know that WE want to know...
Since you KNOW IT, you can tell US...
Its only what you KNOW that we are asking for...
That shouldnt be too hard for a guy on his way to godhood...
Oh really norm - what do authoritative mormon sources say?
“We Worship the Father... In an official interpretation of Moses 1:6, the First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, And Charles W. Penrose) said: ‘But the sole object of worship, God the eternal Father, stands supreme and alone...’ Who is the sole object of worship?... President George Q. Cannon taught: ‘...We know also that our Father in Heaven should be the object of our worship... He will not have any divided worship. We are commanded to worship Him, and Him only.’ (Gospel Truth, 1:135)” —Come Unto Christ —Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1986, p. 46-47
Really now norm, multiple other mormons tell me that they worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus' name. They do not worship Jesus. OT the people worshiped Jehovah as the Elohim and that by Jehovah's word there were no other gods in existence besides Himself. By your own words Jesus was the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Where then is heavenly father in this picture.
The eternal principles of the progression to godhood, as taught by mormonism relate that one MUST be proven worthy in mortal life and do all the ordinances, works and marriage in the temple in order first - Jesus became a God without that -so just how eternal are those principles norm.
norm, while I can see the desire to try to equate theosis to mormon eternal progression - the facts are that those who define theosis totally reject those mormon claims. Remember norm, they also believe in monotheistic trinitarianism - one God alone in all existance. Crux of theosis - becoming more like God - NOT becoming a god. Be honest with definitions norm.
Now since no one before the prophet Joe Smith followed this pattern, and since the prophet claims that he received this from an angel (Gal 1:8-9), and we know angels are “messengers”,. .
Mohammad claimed to have been visited by an angel as well norm - does that make his claim to authentic religion equal to mormonism. In fact norm, MANY have claimed to have received revelations from angels - smith's claim is just one among many and is not exclusive. The issue is whether or not this was a TRUE angel (did smith even have an encounter to begin with) or a FALSE angel. Smith's life and long list of false prophecies prove that if anything, it was a false angel and smith a false prophet.
It’s very important to know whether Joseph Smith’s visitations were from God, from the devil, or whether he just made up stories.
I recommend that people should make this a matter of serious study and prayer, because if they were from God we should be paying attention to the things that were revealed.
Funny how most mormons always capitalize "church" when referring to the mormon church though.
"It is well-known that the truth or falsity of a story lies mainly in the details. There are some details connected with the vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, which may appear to many as insignificant, and by many members of the Church are overlooked, yet they are of vital and of overwhelming importance." Answers to Gospel Questions, Joseph Fielding Smith, vol III ch 14, page 56.
Norm, serious STUDY has been applied to the testimonies smith HIMSELF has given. If you have children, you can tell when they are lying by the contradictions in their stories. There are 8 different first vision accounts given by smith - and in them key elements are not consistent.
The date / his age — from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
The reason or motive for seeking divine help — from no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates), Bible reading and conviction of sins, a revival, a desire to know if God exists.
Who appears to him — a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son.
It this were a court trial and a 'eyewitness' was this inconsistent - the testimony would be viewed as false norm. Now, this is ONLY the testimony of smith. Mormon witness Martin Harris gives an entirely different account of smith's first vision. William smith's account is different from the official version as well. Other versions from smith's inner circle and time provide wider variations and contradictions.
Consider too the contradictions and falsehoods posed in the 'official' version - there were no revivals in 1820, smith's later attempt to join the Methodist Church, no evidence of persecution, etc.
Smith contradicts his story in D&C 84 - smith did not even claim to have the Priesthood in 1820, and the D&C clearly says that without the Priesthood no man can see God and live.
Now one can ignore the facts obtained by study - and be intellectually dishonest to oneself - on one can look deeply into the consequences of the great inconsistencies of the details and see that the event never occurred as the 'official' record states. One would think that the keystone event in the founding and restoration would be clear and straightforward, the facts are norm that as one studies the details the more the proof is that the story was made up. Any appeal to prayer at this point is further questionable - that smith is lying, no amount of prayer and sincerity will change a lie into truth.
Facts and details can be interesting things. Here are some more testimonies Norm
Brigham Young - “The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong” Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)
Wilford Woodruff - “The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world” Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)
Wilford Woodruff - “Joseph was strengthened by the Spirit and power of God, and was enabled to listen to the teachings of the angel. ... The man to whom the angel appeared obeyed the Gospel.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 197 (1855)
Heber C. Kimball - “Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter to do it.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 29 (1857)
Orson Hyde - “Some one may say, ‘If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?’ Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)
John Taylor - “How did the state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith” Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 127 (1863)
George A. Smith - “he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong” Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)
George A. Smith - “[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was ‘Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?’ “ Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)
Wilford Woodruff - “How did it [Mormonism] commence? It commenced by an angel of God flying through the midst of heaven and visiting a young man named Joseph Smith in the year 1827. ... The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong” Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 324 (1869)
John Taylor - “None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)
Oliver Cowdery - “You will remember that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our Brother J. Smith Jr.s age that was an error in the type — it should have been in the 17th. — You will please remember the correction, as it will be necessary for the full understanding of what will follow in time. This would bring the date down to the year 1823.” Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 241 (1840)..
Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.
“He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi.” Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)
“Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi” Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)
Joseph Smith - “When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi.” 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)
Joseph Smith - “He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi.” Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)
A liar will always be caught by his words. Earnest prayer will not change lies into truth.
Only Cowards Stone People to Death: An Islamic Religious Ritual
Consider to what his own Mom had to say about Joey Smith...
Lucy Mack Smith tells about Joseph’s Tall Tales
We know Smith’s mother, Lucky Mack Smith, said about her 17 year old son, Joseph Smith, Junior:
“During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of the continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them. On the twenty-second of September, 1824, Joseph again visited the place where he found the plates the year previous; and supporting at this time that the only thing required, in order to possess them until the time for their translation, was to be able to keep the commandments of God...he fully expected to carry them home with him. (Lucy Mack Smith, edited by Preston Nibley, History of Joseph Smith, p. 83, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, 1958)
What Mormons often miss in this account is that Lucy Mack Smith was saying Joseph gave these storied details before he ever even “interpreted” these gold plates. [The context of her story is that Smith is age 17 & he’s about to retrieve the gold plates again a year after being given them...and he’s yet to interpret them]. A lot of it was either already there or influenced by other author(s) of his era — in his active, imaginative mind!
Well did Moroni prophesy that Joseph Smith’s name would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.
Through earnest study and prayer. I have received a personal witness that he was called as a prophet and that through him Jesus Christ restored the fullness of the gospel to the earth.
I am by no means the only one who has received that same witness.
The feast is prepared, the table is spread, and all are invited to partake.
Best regards,
Normandy
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