On the impossibility of women's ordination in the RCC

Domine, da mihi hanc aquam ^ | August 31, 2010 | Fr. Philip Neri Powell, OP, Ph.D.

[rface]

I am a Christian - but not a Roman Catholic, but I am wondering what the divide is regarding married Priests.... and how solid the arguments against Priests and marriage hold.....or visa versa.

respectfully asking for your opinion.....

[NYer]

I am a Christian - but not a Roman Catholic, but I am wondering what the divide is regarding married Priests.... and how solid the arguments against Priests and marriage hold.....or visa versa.

The Catholic Church allows for married priests but with restrictions. The tradition in the Western or Latin-Rite Church has been for priests as well as bishops to take vows of celibacy, a rule that has been firmly in place since the early Middle Ages. Even today, though, exceptions are made. For example, there are married Latin-Rite priests who are converts from Lutheranism and Episcopalianism. In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the ratio of married to celibate priests is about half.

[Cronos]

Akin to the lady (was it buffyD?) here are valid reasons about the orthodox Lutheran opposition to priestesses

[HushTX]

Can you be more specific about the term 'clergy'? What constitutes clergy...

Some protestant denominations have female pastors. They are, technically, clergy. I'm fine with that. I don't go to those churches, but if a woman preaching there gets someone started on a path to God, I can't complain. If a woman helps someone stay in fellowship with God, I can hardly complain about that either. That's about as far as I extend my consideration of that issue. It gets stickier when you start having female Deacons and Priests, as is done in the Episcopal Church. While I have no specific objection to this, I also recognize that I am not a scholar of church canon and have no interest in enforcing my lack of objection in the form of support or demanding such be allowed anywhere else. I simply look and say "oh, that's what they do."

Perhaps more concise would be to say that "clergy" is "the group or body of ordained persons in a religion, as distinguished from the laity." I differentiate this from Priesthood, as protestant pastors are not priests. I probably could have explained that initially.

and by whose authority do these clergy have the right to lead.

It is not my opinion that the clergy lead. They may be the celebrants at Mass or whatever protestants call their equivalent (I should know that, given my background, but don't- for shame!), but they are servants first and foremost. At least, that is my understanding and given Christ's lessons I believe I am on the right track with that understanding.

Do you consider yourself a member of any of those 22 Catholic Churches?

The reason for my statement, in the way I made it anyway, is that a lot of Roman Catholics do not consider someone "Catholic" unless they were Baptized by a member of the Priesthood within the Roman Catholic Church specifically, under the umbrella of the Pope. I am not generally in agreement with that, however I harbor a very strong respect of the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox churches and all branches within.

I was Baptized by the Dean of an Anglican cathedral and Confirmed by a Bishop of a parish that was once part of the Episcopal Church of the USA. Our Diocese was split on the matter of separating from the ECUSA, but a majority did leave and so our parish and others within the area are now aligned with the Anglican Church in North America. Long story short, we aren't Episcopalian.

All that said, we practice in the manner laid out in the Anglican liturgy, which is very "Catholic" in nature. During Mass we recite the Nicene Creed, which includes the line "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church," a thing I take seriously. Yet I would not be "allowed" to take Communion in a Roman Even still, I am fully supportive of the RCC in as much as I know about the Church. In fact, I am eagerly trying to learn more about the supposed move to accept Anglicans into full communion with Rome and, perhaps, allow us to celebrate the Mass at Roman Catholic parishes. I find the idea inspiring and exciting.

Hopefully this clears things up somewhat, or at least leads to further conversation that we can all benefit from and enjoy.

[HushTX]

And I even proof read my post! Shame for missing bad grammar and a converged sentence.

What I meant was “Yet I would not be “allowed” to take Communion in a Roman Catholic parish. Even still...”

Sorry, and sorry for the double post.

[Cronos]

Will just add this to NYer's post --> celibacy is a discipline not a dogma of faith. By that we mean that it is a practise that has been followed for sensible reasons, but that does not mean that we cannot have married priests -- and we DO have them amongst the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is not a dogma of faith like the Trinity, something that cannot be compromised

Yet these Eastern Churches Catholic or Orthodox also restrict bishops to unmarried men or monks. The reasoning for bishops to be unmarried is simple -- to prevent corruption to which we humans are liable. For lay priests it was the same reason for the celibacy rule in the largely rural Western Patriarchate.

I personally think that celibate priests have merit and purpose as religious, but I believe that we should have more visibility for Eastern Catholic Churchs so that if a married man truly has the vocation, he may join the priesthood as a Syro-Malabar (say) priest. I know I'm getting something wrong in that statement though -- NYer, is that possible?

[Cronos]

I look forward to having orthodox, traditional Anglican-rite Catholics enriching the Church with their presence.

[HushTX]

I don’t know if that’s me or not. I’m not well versed enough to say for sure.

But I sure try to be a good Catholic. I just fail a lot. Maybe I can get points for effort? :-D

[NYer]

I personally think that celibate priests have merit and purpose as religious, but I believe that we should have more visibility for Eastern Catholic Churchs so that if a married man truly has the vocation, he may join the priesthood as a Syro-Malabar (say) priest. I know I'm getting something wrong in that statement though -- NYer, is that possible?

Thank you for the expansion on celibacy as a discipline and the reason why bishops are chosen from the celibate priests. As for a married man becoming a Syro-Malabar priest, that is already a reality - IF - he is a member of that rite. IOW, a Latin Rite married man would have to formally switch rites before entering their seminary.

You may have previously read the comments made by Maronite Patriarch Nasrallah Pierre Cardinal Sfeir, as I have posted them to other threads. For the benefit of freeper rface, it might assist in better comprehending the advantages and drawbacks to a married priesthood.

During the 2005 Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist, for example, Cardinal Angelo Scola, Patriarch of Venice, raised the issue of viri probati (tested men), saying that some bishops had “put forward the request to ordain married faithful of proven faith and virtue.” Bishops from Great Britain and New Zealand supported the idea, arguing that it might encourage additional young men to enter the priesthood.

During the interventions by Eastern-rite bishops, Cardinal Nasrallah Sfeir, the Maronite patriarch of Antioch in Lebanon, said that half of his diocese’s priests are married.

“It must be recognized that if admitting married men resolves one problem, it creates others just as serious,” he told the synod members.

The priest’s duty to care for his wife and children, ensure their education and oversee their entry into society are among the problems Cardinal Sfeir mentioned.

“Another difficulty facing a married priest arises if he does not enjoy a good relationship with his parishioners,” he said. “His bishop cannot transfer him because of the difficulty of transferring his whole family.”

Celibacy, in fact, is “the most precious jewel in the treasury of the Catholic Church,” the cardinal declared, contrasting the practice against an impure culture. “How can celibacy be conserved in an atmosphere laden with eroticism? Newspapers, Internet, billboards, shows, everything appears shameless and constantly offends the virtue of chastity.

“If Jesus Christ wanted priests to be married,” he continued, “he would have gotten married himself.”

The last statement is by far, the best argument. It is also worth noting that some of the married priest converts to the RC, have also weighed in on this issue. Consider the following.

Married Priests Back Celibacy

rface, I hope our combined efforts to respond to your question are helpful. This discussion is as old as christianity ;-)

[NYer]

Thank you for the clarifications on my questions. It makes for a better understanding and dialogue. I will respond more in depth, later today.

[Nosterrex]

I am not certain who Buffy is. I received a copy of the response to her that someone sent me. In it Buffy talked about women in the LCMS being second-class citizens. My point was that such language itself, such as second-class citizens, is alien to Christianity. It is the result of a secular ideology worming its way into the church. Whether Buffy realizes it or not, she is making the same error that the mother of James and John made.

[redgolum]

Good article, and addresses much of what I have heard of in support of WO.

A friend of mine (a pastor) would love it, because then he could have someone else deal with women. He requires at least one other person present at all talks with a women.

But that is better handled by having a deaconess anyway.

[Cronos]

I pinged you to Buffy because I knew she was, let’s put it mildly, exagerating about women in the LCMS. This article answers both the LCMS and the Catholic/Orthodox viewpoint.

[Cronos]

"I just fail a lot" -- we all do! Even saints. It's the sincere repentence and desire (and will) to not do it again that God looks for, I think.

"Maybe I can get points for effort?" --> we both hope so :) Well, actually, we know so -- we are not perfect, God knows, but He appreciates our sincere efforts.

[Cronos]

Thank you! That was very insightful. I’ve copied it for future reference :)

[firebrand]

I want the Catholic Church to stay just the way I left it.

[Nosterrex]

I have run into people like Buffy. Instead of having their minds conformed to the mind of Christ, they have had their minds transformed by the world. They do not understand the nature of the church.