Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: ShadowAce
So you believe that an infinitely merciful and just God created independent, conscious, and responsible souls merely for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell--through no ability of their own to repent?

Yes, that is what I believe scriptures teach.

It also makes sense to me, logically, from historical biblical evidence.

On the other hand, effectually it comes out no diffently than if you choose to believe that we all had a choice, but that God already knew our choices before the foundation of the world, and only picked to be saved those who he knew would choose him.

In either case, within our timeline, God saves those he has "chosen", and we come to saving Knowledge through his spirit bestowed upon his children.

What I have a bigger problem with is those who believe that Jesus actually died for, and offered payment to God for, every sin committed by every human who ever walked the earth, but that many make that sacrifice ineffectual by not accepting it.

I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice -- so I think it makes much more sense that Jesus died ONLY for the sins of those who God predestined to be saved (however it is that you think he made His choice).

31 posted on 09/09/2010 8:44:14 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies ]


To: CharlesWayneCT
On the other hand, effectually it comes out no diffently than if you choose to believe that we all had a choice, but that God already knew our choices before the foundation of the world, and only picked to be saved those who he knew would choose him.

I disagree here. God doesn't make our choices for us. We choose whether we want to be with Him for all eternity--or without Him for all eternity. He then grants that wish, and lets us suffer the consequences of a bad choice.

I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice -- so I think it makes much more sense that Jesus died ONLY for the sins of those who God predestined to be saved (however it is that you think he made His choice).

John 3:16 actually gives that basis. "Whosoever will" believe in Him should not perish, also implies that whosoever will not--will perish.

God provided the means. We must provide the will. We make the choice--God gave us that responsibility. If it were as you believe, then everyone in the world is living within God's will--thus no one sins. If no one sins, then everyone is entitled to heaven.

Since we both agree that there is sin in this world, then I think we can both agree that no one is entitled to be saved. Which means we are living outside of His will.

33 posted on 09/09/2010 8:54:22 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies ]

To: CharlesWayneCT
I find no scriptual basis to suggest that any human agent could ever render ineffectual Jesus' perfect sacrifice

Your basic premise is right, but perhaps you are looking at "ineffectual" from a human, earthly perspective rather than a divine one.

If I am damned, can we say His sacrifice is ineffective because I am not saved? I don't think so. It is still perfectly effective because it was an act of perfect love that would have redeemed me had I lived up to it.

It is like calling a 9-11 firefighter ineffectual because he never pulled anyone out of the WTC. The sacrifice still stands. The heroic charity is still evident. In the economy of love (which I think is as close to God's view of things as we get), it's actually quite immaterial whether he pulled anyone out or not.

Just a thought. Predestination is not a strong suit of mine.

35 posted on 09/09/2010 9:13:48 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson