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Do Mormons think they that they will become gods? [Open Thread]
Mormon answers ^ | 2010 | Jeff Lindsay

Posted on 10/11/2010 1:21:07 PM PDT by restornu

Numerous critics claim that LDS religion is blasphemous and even Satanic because we allegedly think we will become gods. They say we try to rob God and Christ of their glory, the same dark sin that caused Lucifer to be cast to hell in Isaiah 14.

When the critics make these claims, they never explain what LDS doctrine really is and what it is not. We absolutely DO NOT believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him.

We do not believe that we will take away His glory, but we only add to it by following Christ. For us, there is and always will be a need to be subject to God the Eternal Father, the Almighty God, the "God of gods and Lord of lords," as Deuteronomy 10:17 puts it. He is the One whom we worship and always will worship. The modern Apostle Boyd K. Packer has clarified this issue:

The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him.

He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.

There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him.

(Boyd K. Packer, "The Pattern of Our Parentage," Ensign, Nov. 1984, p. 69.)

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19).

Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23).

Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18).

He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippians 2:5,6).

Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4).

Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

Critics, how do you explain away such scriptures? They disclose an important aspect of early Christianity, the doctrine of "theosis," holding that man can become like God (much more evidence is given below).

After pondering the above-mentioned scriptures, let's turn to terminology. What do we call glorified, resurrected beings who, through Christ, receive eternal life and the fullness of God as joint-heirs with Christ, sitting with Him in his throne? Personally, I would prefer to call them angels who serve and represent God.

However, the word that is used in the Bible and in other LDS sources to describe such beings is not generally angels, but the much more controversial term, gods.

(In Doctrine and Covenants 132, "gods" are clearly higher than the angels - but they are nevertheless children of God and subject to Him.) Accept my apologies, but the choice of the term "gods" is not ours.

Christ himself spoke of humans when he quoted Psalms 82:6 and said, in John 10:34, "Ye are gods." As every serious Christian scholar knows, He was not saying that humans are God, but is often interpreted as saying that human representatives of God can be called "gods" in a very limited sense. Humans are not and will not be gods in the sense of Greek philosophy (absolute, ultimate, uncreated, independent beings).

No, the terms "gods" when used in the Bible and LDS writings may be meant in a more limited sense not radically different in meaning than "angels" (though a difference in LDS sources is that "angels" are single while "gods" dwell in eternal family relationships, as discussed below).

If we used the term "angels," the anti-LDS attacks would lose much of their zing. After all, how many people would be interested in seeing a movie called "The Angel Makers"? But the term "gods" is what God Himself has chosen to describe the divine potential of His sons and daughters. Let's now consider some examples.

The possibility of multiple "godlike" beings seems to be what Paul referred to when he said there are "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6). It also seems to be what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods."

The King James Version (and most translations) gives "lower than the angels," but the Hebrew word is "elohim" which means "gods." Commentators have long explained that this term, literally meaning "gods," is describing angels - divine beings serving or representing God.

The existence of other godlike beings is suggested by multiple scriptures that describe God as a "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Joshua 22:2, and Psalm 136:2). That phrase makes no sense if false pagan gods are meant, but perhaps it refers to angels as gods.

Psalm 82:1 likewise says that God "standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Scholars know that the ancient Jews, including those in New Testament times, that angels were often described as "gods." (E.g., John Strugnell, The Angelic Liturgy at Qumran in Supplements to Vetus Testamentum VII, [Congress Volume, Oxford, 1959], Leiden: Brill, 1960, pp. 336-338; or A.S. van der Woude, Oudtestamentische Studien, Vol. 14, 1965, pp. 345-373, as cited by Stephen Robinson, Are Mormons Christians?, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991, p. 67).

Not only angels, but even humans can receive the label "gods" in the scriptures. For example, the term "elohim" = "gods" is used to describe human judges in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9.

Here authorized servants of God are called "gods" - again in a limited sense. Exodus 7:1 says that Moses was to be "god to Pharaoh" - undoubtedly referring to Moses as an authorized represent of God.

(Also Adam, when he gained knowledge of good and evil, was said to have become "as one of us" by God in Genesis 3:22.) If the scriptures can call mortal judges and prophets "gods" in some sense, then that term is even more appropriate for immortal, resurrected beings who have become one with Christ and received the fullness of God.

A particularly interesting example is found in Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." Christ repeated that scripture in John 10:34-36 to defend Himself against charges of blasphemy:

Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In other words, if the scriptures label mortals who receive the law (and thus represent God) as "gods," then why should the Jews be outraged when Christ says He is the Son of God?

Christ pointed out that Psalm 82:6 was not a mistake or a fluke, for He added the phrase "and the scripture cannot be broken" right after it, stressing that it was accurate and that its meaning could not be argued away.

Some have argued that the word "gods" really should be "judges." This argument fails completely. For detailed documentation on the use of "elohim" = "gods" in Psalm 82:6, and a refutation of the common argument that only "judges" and not "gods" is meant, see the article "Reconsidering Psalms 82:6: Judges or Gods?

A Proposal" by Ben McGuire and also "Maklelan, Psalm 82: 'elohim' as 'judges'? No." at Lehi's Library, where we see that extensive scholarship leads to this conclusion:

In conclusion, "judges" [instead of "elohim in Psalm 82:6] is simply a bizarre translation appealed to by two early Rabbinic texts in an attempt to avoid mentioning other gods.

The translation has been shown to be incorrect, has been shown not to have ever been used before those Rabbinic texts, and has been shown to be rejected outright by contemporary scholars, including prominent Evangelical scholars. The word elohim simply cannot mean "judges."

If the Bible can use the term "gods" in to describe non-ultimate but heavenly, angelic beings who represent God, then Bible-believing people should not be outraged when Latter-day Saints use that term in much the same way.

Our use of the term is clearly in a limited sense, referring to angelic, resurrected beings who receive great blessings and power from God, but remain subject to Him and serve and worship Him forever.

LDS doctrine on this needlessly controversial issue is similar to the teachings of C.S. Lewis, who also understood the divine potential of humans beings. Here is a quote from his book, The Grand Miracle (Ballantine Books, New York, 1970), p. 85 (on the last page of the essay, "Man or Rabbit?" in Chapter 11):

The people who keep on asking if they can't lead a good life without Christ, don't know what life is about; if they did they would know that "a decent life" is mere machinery compared with the thing we men are really made for. Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up.

We are to be remade. All the rabbit in us will be swallowed up - the worried, conscientious, ethical rabbit as well as the cowardly and sensual rabbit.

We shall bleed and squeal as the handfuls of fur come out; and then surprisingly, we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy. [emphasis mine] And from the same book, p. 65 (the last page of Chapter 8):

Christ has risen, and so we shall rise. St. Peter for a few seconds walked on the water, and the day will come when there will be a remade universe, infinitely obedient to the will of glorified and obedient men, when we can do all things, when we shall be those gods that we are described as being in Scripture.

Here is a related quote from Lewis's book, Mere Christianity (Collier Books, MacMillan Publ. Co., New York, 1943; paperback edition, 1960; p. 160 - the last paragraph of Chapter 9, "Counting the Cost," in Book IV):

"The command Be ye perfect [Matt. 5:48] is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible.

He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and he is going to make good His words.

If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose -

He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness.

The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said."

Where did the highly respected C.S. Lewis get such doctrine?

From the Bible, which teaches us that we can indeed put on the divine nature and mature as sons and daughters of God, becoming like Him.

In my view, it is our status as children of God that gives us the potential to become heirs and the potential to mature and become more like the Father. Paul expresses such a concept in Romans 8:14-18:

"14 For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.... 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together; 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

We can be joint-heirs with Christ. There is divine glory to be revealed within us, for we have a divine inheritance as children of God.

Beings who reach this potential could be called "gods" in a limited sense, for they serve the Father and are subject to Him forever. Just as earthly parents want their children to grow and become more like the parents, so our Father in Heaven wants us to grow and partake of his glorious gift of eternal life. It is not an instant process, but one that requires that we learn, obey, and strive, yet relying entirely on the grace of Christ in the process. This relationship between God and man is further affirmed in Hebrews 12:9,10:

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He [God] for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

A key point here is that God is the Father of our spirits. Indeed, Paul in Acts 17:28 says "we are also his offspring." Our spirits existed before we were born into mortality. As sons and daughters of God, we witnessed the creation of the world and shouted for joy, according to Job 38:7. As spirit sons and daughters, we have inherited something divine within us.

We have been placed on earth to grow, to learn, to understand good and evil, to learn to choose on our own, and to be tried, for now we have a veil of forgetfulness over our memories of the premortal existence with God. We are also sent here to obtain a physical body which can be resurrected and glorified like the glorious and powerful body of Christ (Phil. 3:21).

There is glory waiting to be revealed in us, as Paul wrote in Romans 8:14-18 and as John wrote in 1 John 3: 2:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him...

Growing to become more like Christ and more like our Father in Heaven should be our goal, as Christ has commanded us (Matt. 5:48). How do we grow in that way?

By following Christ with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength. Our Father in Heaven wants us to accept Christ and to follow and obey Him, that we might return to His presence and become partakers of His holiness and fullness (Heb. 12:10; Eph. 3:19), or, as Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:3-10, "partakers of the divine nature":

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Peter outlines some of the things we must do to make our calling and election sure - but it is only through the grace of Christ that such an opportunity exists.

The goal of Christ and the Father is to help us grow and put on the divine nature, to become more like Christ and to be joint-heirs with Him.

Within us is the divine potential to fully become sons and daughters of God, living in His presence and sharing in the fullness of eternal life that is His. This profound truth is the target of some of the most vile attacks on our religion, yet it is a truth held and taught by the original Christian Church.

Fortunately, Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christian denomination that accept what Peter taught on this issue. Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification.

Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):

Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc. - see the bottom part of my page about Adam and the Fall]. From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

Accept it or not, it's hard to say this doctrine excludes one from Christianity unless we wish to condemn Orthodoxy and reject old St. Athanasius himself and even C.S. Lewis as cultists.

While we have noted that the divine potential of man is found in the Old Testament, further insight comes from the Old Testament manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

A great source for studying the Old Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls is The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, and Eugen Ulrich (San Francisco, California: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999).

Numerous Old Testament passages are provided from the Dead Sea Scrolls and compared to the Masoretic text or Septuagint. The version of Psalm 135 from the Dead Sea Scrolls (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, p. 568) differs in many ways from the Masoretic Text used to prepare most modern Bible translation.

One difference is the added emphasis given on "gods" in verses 5 and 6. Here is the DSS text, with changes relative to the Masoretic Text marked in italics:

5. I know that the LORD is great, and that our God is above all gods.

6. The LORD does what pleases him, in heaven and on earth, to do as he does; there is none like the LORD, and there is none who acts like the King of gods, in the seas and in all (their) depths.

"King of the gods" is an interesting title for God, similar to the title "God of gods" in Deut. 10:17, which is reiterated in Psalm 136:2. Such titles don't make much sense if the "gods" are imaginary, evil beings.

Would it be flattering to call someone the god of leprechauns and poltergeists? But the true God of the Bible, the only God with whom have anything to do, and to Whom all glory flows, is nonetheless properly praised as the God of gods. This makes sense in light of the divine potential of man.

The doctrine of divine human potential is easily misunderstood. To keep it clear, remember this: the growth and development and success of a child in no way detracts from the honor or glory of the parents, but adds to it.

If we participate in Eternal Life as heirs of God, we will be worshiping and glorifying God fully and wonderfully - not taking or usurping his glory. And we will more perfectly and fully be able to say that we are His children, and He is our God (Rev. 21:7), and glory be to His name forever.

LDS doctrine teaches that we can be joint-heirs with Christ and inherit all that the Father has, sharing in the incredible, unimaginable type of life that is called Eternal Life.

One important but easily misunderstood aspect of eternal life is eternal families.

We believe that families can be sealed for eternity in the Temple of God, so that the marriage of a husband and wife is not over at death, but persists into the eternities (if they want it to, and if they remain true to their covenants with God), as can family bonds.

Perhaps this is what Peter meant when he said that a husband and wife can become heirs together of the grace of life (1 Peter 3:7).

This marriage must be performed with the sealing power and Priesthood authority that Christ gave to Peter, which, among other things, allows a marriage or "sealing" performed on earth to be valid in heaven as well (Matt. 16:19).

(Temple marriage, like baptism, is an ordinance of change and covenant making which must be done in this mortal world, either while alive or by proxy for the deceased, not in heaven, which is a place of eternal relationships where new marriages are not performed.)

We also believe that those who receive eternal life and accept eternal marriage can be blessed with posterity in the next life, a concept known as "eternal increase."

Details have not been revealed, in spite of much speculation. But it seems that God's sons and daughters in the eternal family unit can in some way become "co-creators" with Him in the eternities, just as they can be "co-creators" with Him in this life in the bringing of children into the world.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: ecumenical; lds Comment #1 Removed by Moderator

To: restornu

Really?

Hmmm ...

“”We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.’” (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library ‘97 CD-ROM)”


2 posted on 10/11/2010 1:30:13 PM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: restornu

This is going to be an interesting thread.


3 posted on 10/11/2010 1:40:54 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Obama is like a rocket scientist....who's trying to do brain surgery with a hammer.)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

I don’t know the complete context of Talmage but this is in the scriptures which refers to Jesus Chrsit

1 Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

also

Here is a related quote from Lewis’s book, Mere Christianity (Collier Books, MacMillan Publ. Co., New York, 1943; paperback edition, 1960; p. 160 - the last paragraph of Chapter 9, “Counting the Cost,” in Book IV):

“The command Be ye perfect [Matt. 5:48] is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible.

He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and he is going to make good His words.

If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose -

He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness.

The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.”

Where did the highly respected C.S. Lewis get such doctrine?

From the Bible, which teaches us that we can indeed put on the divine nature and mature as sons and daughters of God, becoming like Him.

In my view, it is our status as children of God that gives us the potential to become heirs and the potential to mature and become more like the Father. Paul expresses such a concept in Romans 8:14-18:

“14 For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.... 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together; 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


4 posted on 10/11/2010 1:41:25 PM PDT by restornu (In the OT many denies coming of the Son of God, in the NT many Denies Heavenly Father as the Father.)
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To: Adam-ondi-Ahman; America always; Antonello; Arrowhead; asparagus; BlueMoose; ComeUpHigher; ...
Religion Moderator Guidelines

Ecumenic threads are closed to antagonism. To antagonize is to incur or to provoke hostility in others.

Unlike the “caucus” threads, the article and reply posts of an “ecumenic” thread can discuss more than one belief, but antagonism is not tolerable. More leeway is granted to what is acceptable in the text of the article than to the reply posts. For example, the term “gross error” in an article will not prevent an ecumenical discussion, but a poster should not use that term in his reply because it is antagonistic. As another example, the article might be a passage from the Bible which would be antagonistic to Jews. The passage should be considered historical fact and a legitimate subject for an ecumenic discussion. The reply posts however must not be antagonistic.

Contrasting of beliefs or even criticisms can be made without provoking hostilities. But when in doubt, only post what you are “for” and not what you are “against.” Or ask questions.

Ecumenical threads will be moderated on a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” basis. When hostility has broken out on an “ecumenic” thread, I’ll be looking for the source.

Therefore “anti” posters must not try to finesse the guidelines by asking loaded questions, using inflammatory taglines, gratuitous quote mining or trying to slip in an “anti” or “ex” article under the color of the “ecumenic” tag.

Posters who try to tear down other’s beliefs or use subterfuge to accomplish the same goal are the disrupters on ecumenic threads and will be booted from the thread and/or suspended.

5 posted on 10/11/2010 1:45:46 PM PDT by restornu (In the OT many denies coming of the Son of God, in the NT many Denies Heavenly Father as the Father.)
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To: restornu
Let me tell as an ex-Mormon. I love the people of the church and their culture.

But their doctrine is polluted and ridiculous. Joseph Smith was a thief and a pedophile. Brigham Young said the blood of Christ never saved anyone..."you must spill your own blood." Their God inhabits a body of flesh "as you and I have" and occupies a planet where he and his wife spread their seed which is born then on earth.

They baptize for the dead - it is their big claim to fame. Thus the emphasis on geneology and temple rights. They search records to find their long dead ancestors so they can go to the temple and be baptised in their stead. SICK, SICK, SICK! As Alister Begg has said...."no one was ever saved by something someone else did for them."

The Bible says trust in Jesus and you will be saved. When a disciple asked how to be saved he was told..."believe in the one whom God has sent." The Mormon prophets teach that Jesus is not the only Son of God, with God from the beginning and the one through which all things were made. They teach every one can echieve godhood as Jesus did.

They believe ..."God has a body of flesh as you see I have." NUTS, NUTS, NUTS.

And to top it aff they go door to door telling Chrsitians that they have an "apostate" faith and need to become Mormon to be saved.

Then they get bent when someone exposes their crazy beliefs.

6 posted on 10/11/2010 2:05:40 PM PDT by TPOOH (I wish I could have been Jerry Reed.)
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To: restornu

Joseph Smith had another opinion:

“God: Creator And Ruler Of Many Worlds. — While it is true that evolutionists may be divided between theistic and atheistic groups, yet most of those professing belief in God consider him to be an indefinable force, essence, or power of an incomprehensible nature. According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (D. & C. 130:22- 23; Moses 6:51, 57; Abra. 3:22-24; Jos. Smith 2:16-19.)”


7 posted on 10/11/2010 2:17:08 PM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

So as not to seem to be a tricky “anti” the answer to the question posed is Yes.


8 posted on 10/11/2010 2:30:37 PM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: restornu

Excellent post. Thank you very much.


9 posted on 10/11/2010 2:48:15 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
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To: restornu; ejonesie22; MarkBsnr

For starters, the author, Jeff Lindsay is not an apostle, prophet or even a 70. He is not authorized to speak for the mormon church in any fashion. Therefore, his words only reflect his OPINION and as such are worth little to the topic.

He speaks towards the Orthodox and related doctrine of Theosis which he states is “holding that man can become like God”. As such he has already rendered his apologetic regarding mormon exaltation. It is already been well established that the Christian concept of theosis is not the same as Lindsey is alleging. Christian sites such as

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

make it very clear that the mormon use of the term is not compatible with the orthodox. As such, his attempts to apply it are invalid.

Further note, lindsey attempts to use the writings of post apostolic church fathers to bolster his argument, such as St. Athanasius. Anyone knowledgeable about mormonism will be quick to point out that mormonism accuses these very same church fathers of leading the church into apostasy and corrupting all of its gospel doctrines and principles. Yet lindsey will use these very same church fathers to claim that the early church taught men can become gods. The double standard is very evident in this manner.

lindsay is famous for quasi intellectual argument for the smallest coincidence - that explains much of the other contortions he puts a reader through in the article.

Bottom line is that lindsey doesn’t even represent mormon doctrine well and his apologetic serves only to try to sugar coat an otherwise unpalatable mormon gospel.


10 posted on 10/11/2010 2:48:23 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: restornu; Religion Moderator

I see that one of my posts was pulled from this thread. It was fully within the established rules of such a thread and addressing the points in a non-antagonistic manner. I request its restoration or a decent explanation of why it was pulled.


11 posted on 10/11/2010 3:28:28 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Bryanw92

I agree with you on this one...should be an interesting dialogue.


12 posted on 10/11/2010 3:33:05 PM PDT by Abram
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To: restornu
From the article: Peter outlines some of the things we must do to make our calling and election sure - but it is only through the grace of Christ that such an opportunity exists.

An explanation of this "calling and election made sure" is therefor called for.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 305:

Calling & Election To Be Made Sure

Contend earnestly for the like precious faith with the Apostle Peter, "and add to you faith, virtue," knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity [D&C 4]; "for if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Another point, after having all these qualifications, he lays this injunction upon the people "to make your calling and election sure." He is emphatic upon this subject--after adding all this virtue, knowledge, etc., "Make your calling and election sure." What is the secret--the starting point? "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness." How did he obtain all things? Through the knowledge of Him who hath called him. There could not anything be given, pertaining to life and godliness, without knowledge. Woe! woe! Woe to Christendom!--especially the divines and priests if this be true.

Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this.

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:325-353.

But in the most express and proper usage of the terms, "The elect of God comprise a very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of the Church.... They are the portion of church members who are striving with all their hearts to keep the fulness of the gospel law in this life so that they can become inheritors of the fulness of the gospel rewards in the life to come.

"As far as the male sex is concerned, they are the ones, the Lord says, who have the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon them and who thereafter magnify their callings and are sanctified by the Spirit. In this way, 'They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.' " (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., 217.) See Commentary 2: 267-269, 271-278, 283-285.

[4] What is meant by making an election sure?

It is with election as with calling: the chosen of the Lord are offered all of the blessings of the gospel on condition of obedience to the Lord's laws; and they, having been tried and tested and found worthy in all things, eventually have a seal placed on their election which guarantees the receipt of the promised blessing.

[5] What is meant by having one's calling and election made sure?

To have one's calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father's kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is "set down" with his "Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21

Link

SECOND ANOINTING or SECOND ENDOWMENT

    This ordinance is so rare that many good Mormons do not even know that it exists. It is done only by invitation from the president of the church, to one married couple at a time. It is performed in the Holy of Holies room of the temple by one of the apostles of the church. Those who receive this ordinance are guaranteed of their salvation and exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. The man is anointed as "priest and king" (the wife is anointed "priestess and queen") and their "calling and election [to exaltation] is made sure." Part of the ceremony is performed by the couple in private in their own home, following instructions given during the temple ceremony, and includes the ceremonial washing of feet. One implication of the ceremony is that the recipients will have a personal visitation of Christ. In earlier days many devout Mormons received this ordinance, but since the 1920s it is extremely rare, and probably only given to those in high leadership positions in the church.

For a detailed description of this ceremony, click here.

Link

13 posted on 10/11/2010 3:44:32 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: restornu

What is the source for this post? Link? “Meaning of an ecumenical discussion.”


14 posted on 10/11/2010 3:50:56 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Godzilla
Ecumenism or oecumenism mainly refers to initiatives aimed at greater Christian unity or cooperation. It is used predominantly by and with reference to Christian denominations and Christian Churches separated by doctrine, history, and practice. Within this particular context, the term ecumenism refers to the idea of a Christian unity in the literal meaning: that there should be a single Christian Church.

The word contrasts with interfaith dialogue or interfaith pluralism aimed at unity or cooperation among diverse religions and referring to a worldwide 'religious unity' by the advocacy of a greater sense of shared spirituality.

Ecumenism is the movement within Christianity that aims at "the recovery in thought, in action, and in organization, of the true unity between the Church's mission to the world (its apostolate) and the Church's obligation to be one."[1]

Thus, ecumenism is the promotion of unity or cooperation between distinct religious groups or denominations of Christianity.

Ecumenism is distinguished from and should not be misused to mean interfaith pluralism.

The interfaith movement strives for greater mutual respect, toleration, and co-operation among the world religions.

Interfaith dialogue between representatives of diverse faiths, does not necessarily intend reconciling their adherents into full, organic unity with one another but simply to promote better relations.

15 posted on 10/11/2010 3:51:50 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: restornu; greyfoxx39; ejonesie22; colorcountry; Elsie
He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and he is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose
Where did the highly respected C.S. Lewis get such doctrine?

This quote taken from Beyond Personality, Lewis’s context comes in a chapter called “Counting the Cost,” and describes the process of sanctification that God begins at the moment one becomes a Christian and will continue until we are reunited after death and the judgment with our resurrected bodies, when we will be “perfect,” that is, “complete,” as creatures. In fact, the sentence immediately preceding this is “He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command.” In the same small volume he explains,

What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God. (Lewis, Beyond Personality)

It is important that citations be placed in their proper context, otherwise they are used inaccurately and incorrectly. The greater citation by Lewis shows he never supported the mormon doctrine of exaltation.

16 posted on 10/11/2010 3:55:38 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: restornu; Religion Moderator; greyfoxx39; ejonesie22

Resty - interfaith dialogue needs to be founded on truths that can be shared. This article’s purpose is to defend the mormon doctrine of exaltation - not greater Christian unity or cooperation. As stated in the post that got pulled - the orthodox disagree completely with this kind of mormon definition of ‘theosis’. CS Lewis is also misquoted - which I’ve clarified positively.

You are further citing a definition from another source given the [1] in the text referencing something else - where did you get this ‘definition’ for truth in advertising.

But this part is telling -

“Ecumenism is distinguished from and should not be misused to mean interfaith pluralism.”

But that is what is going on here.


17 posted on 10/11/2010 4:04:45 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla; Religion Moderator

It is obvious what is taking place here. I will await the presence of the regular Religion Moderator and inquire as to how one poster can change the Forum rules without explanation or even providing a link to a source for the changes.


18 posted on 10/11/2010 4:11:18 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Godzilla

I read a lot of Lewis in my day. I too never saw a reflection of such doctrine in his work. Perhaps that is because it is not part of Christian thouigfht and he was writing on Christianity...


19 posted on 10/11/2010 4:33:41 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: restornu
If we are to have an ecumenical, interfaith discussion, it would be fair to take quotations fairly. For example, the quotation from CS Lewis distorts his meaning.

"Each of the Lewis citations have been taken out of their contexts and twisted. In addition, frequently in his writings about humanity’s eternal destiny, he carefully clarifies the eternal and impassible gulf between the only Creator and His creatures, including humans.

In the first quote, Lewis’s context comes in a chapter called “Counting the Cost,” and describes the process of sanctification that God begins at the moment one becomes a Christian and will continue until we are reunited after death and the judgment with our resurrected bodies, when we will be “perfect,” that is, “complete,” as creatures. In fact, the sentence immediately preceding the Mormons’ favorite is “He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command.”18

In the same small volume he explains, What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God.19

In The Weight of Glory Lewis explains what he means by the perfection that God will work in us as we are sanctified, resurrected, and glorified. He distinguishes between God, the only Creator, and humans, even glorified, the created. In the beginning of the essay he explains,

The promises of Scripture may very roughly be reduced to five heads. It is promises, firstly, that we shall be with Christ; secondly, that we shall be like Him; thirdly . . . that we shall have “glory”; fourthly, that we shall, in some sense, be fed or feasted or entertained; and finally, that we shall have some sort of official position in the universe—ruling cities, judging angels, being pillars of God’s temple.20 Lewis’s positive assertions that we can never be deified in the Mormon sense come in a variety of forms. In his popular The Problem of Pain he notes,

For we are only creatures; our role must always be that of patient to agent, female to male, mirror to light, echo to voice. Our highest activity must be response, not initiative. To experience the love of God in a true, and not an illusory form, is therefore to experience it as our surrender to His demand, our conformity to His desire.21

Lewis notes the infinite chasm between Creator and creature when he describes, in the same book, the fall of humanity as “This act of self-will on the part of the creature, which constitutes an utter falseness to its true creaturely position, is the only sin that can be conceived as the Fall.”22 Lewis concludes The Problem of Pain with the glorious comparison:

As our Earth is to all the stars, so doubtless are we men and our concerns to all creation; as all the stars are to space itself, so are all creatures, all thrones and powers and mightiest of the created gods, to the abyss of the self-existing Being, who is to us Father and Redeemer and indwelling Comforter, but of whom no man nor angel can say nor conceive what He is in and for Himself, or what is the work that he “maketh from the beginning to the end.” For they are all derived and unsubstantial things. Their vision fails them and they cover their eyes from the intolerable light of utter actuality, which was and is and shall be, which never could have been otherwise, which has no opposite.23

Perhaps nowhere is Lewis’s consciousness of the utter difference between God and those made in His image greater than in his compelling science fiction trilogy, the Space Trilogy, consisting of three books, Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.24 Lewis draws the reader into a world of time and space travel, alternate worlds, evil and technological destruction and good and selfless sacrifice. It is the story of all stories, the redemption story that began in Eden and, for this series, ends in post-World War II England: God has created us for glory. We have abandoned Him in favor of our own evil desires. He has done everything to redeem us to Himself. Will we respond in faith believing, inheriting the glory prepared for us? Or will we respond with continued self-worship and absorption, damned by our own idolatry to worship ourselves, gods beneath our own dignity? The first way is God’s way. The second—whether cloaked in pantheism, polytheism, the henotheism of Mormon theology, or the masterful guise of materialistic humanism—is not.

Endnotes: 1. C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality (London: The Centenary Press, 1945), 48. Also contained in Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan Company, 1952), 174-175. 2. Lewis is misused by other individuals, religious movements, and organizations as well; and Mormons also attempt to defend their deification theology in other ways, such as comparing it to the nonheretical Eastern Orthodox theology of “theosis,” but the focus of this brief article is restricted to the Mormon use of Lewis’s writings for this purpose. For more information on these issues, see Richard and Joan Ostling’s Mormon America: The Power and the Promise (San Francisco: HarperCollins, 1999), especially pages 307-314; “Grace and the Divinization of Humanity” at http://mysticalrose.tripod.com/grace3.html; and Kurt Van Gorden’s “Can Man Progress to Godhood?” at www.answers.org/Theology/Man_become_God.html. 3. Ted Olsen, “C. S. Lewis,” Christian History, no. 65 (spring 2000) in “The Ten Most Influential Christians of the Twentieth Century.” 4. Lewis died November 23, 1963, the same date as John F. Kennedy and Aldous Huxley. 5. Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson, How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1997). 6. In an article contributed by Robinson to editor Daniel H. Ludlow’s Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 5 vols. (New York: Macmillan Press, 1992). 7. Conference brochure, n.p., n.d. 8. John W. Kennedy, “Southern Baptists Take Up the Mormon Challenge” Christianity Today, 15 June 1998, 30. 9. Jay Copp, “Readers Cross Religious Lines for C. S. Lewis,” Christian Science Monitor, 23 May 1999, 19. 10. See www.signaturebooksinc.com/stranger.htm. 11. Despite its goals and the credentials of its contributors, there is no way to historically, evidentially, biblically, philosophically, or scientifically verify the fiction of Mormon history and theology. This, however, is not the forum for a critique of FARMS. 12. See www/farmsresearch.com/ free/qanda/basicissuesch5.html. 13. C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory (Grand Rapids, Mich.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1949), 14-15. 14. For information see www.jersey.net/~inkwell/mormonet.htm. 15. Quoted from Richard and Joan Ostling, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1999), 308. 16. Ibid., 307. 17. Ibid., 307-308. 18. Lewis, Beyond Personality, 48. 19. Ibid., 12-13. 20. Lewis, The Weight of Glory, 7. 21. C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1962), 51. 22. Ibid., 80. 23. Ibid., 153-154. 24. Available in various editions, including 1996 edition from Simon and Schuster.


20 posted on 10/11/2010 5:02:09 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Paragon Defender; bone52; JDW11235; Normandy; 1010RD; Godzilla; DelphiUser; Saundra Duffy; ...
Godzilla wrote:

He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and he is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose

Where did the highly respected C.S. Lewis get such doctrine? This quote taken from Beyond Personality, Lewis’s context comes in a chapter called “Counting the Cost,” and describes the process of sanctification that God begins at the moment one becomes a Christian and will continue until we are reunited after death and the judgment with our resurrected bodies, when we will be “perfect,” that is, “complete,” as creatures. In fact, the sentence immediately preceding this is “He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command.” In the same small volume he explains,

What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God. (Lewis, Beyond Personality)

It is important that citations be placed in their proper context, otherwise they are used inaccurately and incorrectly. The greater citation by Lewis shows he never supported the mormon doctrine of exaltation.

****

Mere Christianity page 157- 159 CLICK Picture


21 posted on 10/11/2010 5:18:49 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: ejonesie22
I read a lot of Lewis in my day. I too never saw a reflection of such doctrine in his work. Perhaps that is because it is not part of Christian thouigfht and he was writing on Christianity...

Lewis regarded Mormons, and Jehovahs Witnesses, as heretics, and the doctrine within his writings speak out against them.

22 posted on 10/11/2010 5:23:26 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

“God: Creator And Ruler Of Many Worlds. — While it is true that evolutionists may be divided between theistic and atheistic groups, yet most of those professing belief in God consider him to be an indefinable force, essence, or power of an incomprehensible nature. According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (D. & C. 130:22- 23; Moses 6:51, 57; Abra. 3:22-24; Jos. Smith 2:16-19.)”

FYI, the above passage does not say that God was ever a sinful man. Just as Christ was born and became a man, though he was still God, He was sinless. Christ is a resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones.

If you also believe that Christ(God) became man, then why is it a problem if Mormons say the same of God the Father? If you believe that Christ and the Father are one being, then you technically also believe that God the Father became a man and was resurrected but did not sin. Saying that only Chirst became a man would be like saying my left foot became a Baptist but the rest of me is a Mormon.


23 posted on 10/11/2010 5:26:04 PM PDT by Rad_J
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To: Godzilla
I vaguely remember the JW comments but not the Mormon ones but it stands to reason.
24 posted on 10/11/2010 5:32:29 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: restornu; greyfoxx39; ejonesie22; Colofornian

thank you resty - for as lewis goes on to defend the Trinity and make it clear that man will never have the attributes of God, clarifies the use of begotten and makes its usage clear regarding the Father and the Son within the Trinity.

“The Son exists because the Father exists: but there never was a time before the Father produced the Son”. (p 171)

“We are not begotten by God, we are only made by Him: in our natural state we are not sons of God, only (so to speak) statues.”(p. 177)

Lewis is not a closet mormon after all.


25 posted on 10/11/2010 5:40:17 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

If your sins are washed away by the blood of Christ, if you are resurrected and if you live with Christ, if you sin no more, if you are a joint-heir with Christ, if you sit with Christ on his throne, if you have been faithful over a few things and are made ruler over many things, then what are you? A king unto the King of kings? A lord unto the Lord of lords? Why not a god unto the God of gods? It really comes down to semantics like the author states. We could call ourselves fish unto the Fish of fishes.

Obviously God calls us his children and himself our Father. God does not lie. We are his literal children and he is literally our Father as the scriptures say repeatedly. Therefore man is the literal family of God and even though we are fallen man and sinful, God provided a Savior, even Jesus Christ, that we can become like our Father and be perfected through the blood of Christ and become as He is and reach our divine potential and become gods with Christ as our Savior and God as our Father.


26 posted on 10/11/2010 5:44:10 PM PDT by Rad_J
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To: Godzilla

Nor is CS Lewis a prophet or the definer of all things Christian. But, he did talk about the divine nature of man on the divine potential of man that has some similarities to Mormon doctrine. The specific quotes from CS Lewis are not mainstream Christian ideas. Is it exact? No. Do all Christians ever agree on all doctrine? Hardly.


27 posted on 10/11/2010 5:51:11 PM PDT by Rad_J
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To: Godzilla; Paragon Defender; bone52; JDW11235; Normandy; killermedic; DelphiUser

Lewis is not a closet mormon after all.

***

Never thought that, only appreciate his pondering and seeing things in perspective

Audio Lewis talking about eternal progression (starts to take place at the end of life)
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/cslewisbeyondpersonality.htm


28 posted on 10/11/2010 5:52:56 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: Rad_J; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39; Colofornian
But, he did talk about the divine nature of man on the divine potential of man that has some similarities to Mormon doctrine.

Not if you bother to READ what he wrote. He makes it clear that man can never attain true god standing. He makes it clear that the Father was never a man, but eternal.

Did you even read this from my post?

“We are not begotten by God, we are only made by Him: in our natural state we are not sons of God, only (so to speak) statues.”(Mere Christianity, p. 177)

Kinda shows that the definitions of any divinity within man is not equated to mormon doctrine. Read further about Bios, you will see further divergence. The specific quotes from CS Lewis are not mainstream Christian ideas.

And where do you get that idea? The words he uses may change, but the concepts of theosis and sanctification he speaks to ARE mainstream Christian ideas - far more than mormon.

Do all Christians ever agree on all doctrine? Hardly.

Yet Lewis' writings, if you've bothered to READ them, show that the attempt to selectively quote him and apply definitions that he himself would not use and in reality refutes later in even the same book places a gap between Lewis and mormons far greater than any disagreements within Christianity.

29 posted on 10/11/2010 6:03:04 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: restornu
Audio Lewis talking about eternal progression (starts to take place at the end of life)

Sorry resty - lewis does not talk about eternal progression in Beyond Personality. Lindsay may try to make that claim, but in that very same book Lewis states clearly -

What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God. (Lewis, Beyond Personality)

Lewis strips the whole foundational basis for eternal progression - pre-existence - and stomps on it in this sentence.

Rather than look to third stringers as lindsey, read your bible more.

30 posted on 10/11/2010 6:08:00 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Rad_J; Paragon Defender; DelphiUser; killermedic; Grig

Thank for the clarity

If you also believe that Christ(God) became man, then why is it a problem if Mormons say the same of God the Father? If you believe that Christ and the Father are one being, then you technically also believe that God the Father became a man and was resurrected but did not sin. Saying that only Chirst became a man would be like saying my left foot became a Baptist but the rest of me is a Mormon.

***

This has always puzzle me too

If one believes that Jesus was also then Father why does it bother them, when Jesus was also in the state of man.

Also Jesuse even said in John 5 He can do nothing but what seeth the Father do!

In John 5 & 9 Jesus makes a point of saying why He is here on earth.

17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 9:
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8: 28.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily,

19 verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man

I really think this turn into a riddle

The OT denies the Coming of the only begotten Son of Hevenly Father Jesus Chirst,

and the NT denies that Heavenly Father is the Father of Jesus Christ!


31 posted on 10/11/2010 6:18:43 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: Godzilla; Rad_J; Paragon Defender; DelphiUser; killermedic

What you have always seem to overlook in our discussion as well as when Lewis is making a distinction between the Biological life and spiritual life.

Please read that passage carefully!

32 posted on 10/11/2010 6:32:46 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: Rad_J

“But, he did talk about the divine nature of man on the divine potential of man that has some similarities to Mormon doctrine.”

Only if you start with mormonism and read into Lewis’ words. Otherwise, no.


33 posted on 10/11/2010 6:36:53 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: restornu
I KONW that this is a RESTY thread, and she can have it pulled at ANY time; but Iam STILL going to respond to it.


That being said, I'll address THIS srntence:

Numerous critics claim that LDS religion is blasphemous and even Satanic because we allegedly think we will become gods.

What LDS members 'alledgely' think is min dreading on a mass scale.

There is no WAY we could know what MORMONs think; but we sure DO know what MORMONism has written: namely D&C 132:58-66

Read it for yourself and determine "what MORMONs think" about becoming GODS.


 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
 
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
  1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many awives and bconcubines
  2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
  3 Therefore, aprepare thy heart to receive and bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
  4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye bdamned; for no one can creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
  5 For all who will have a ablessing at my hands shall abide the blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
  6 And as pertaining to the new and aeverlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my bglory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
  7 And verily I say unto you, that the aconditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, boaths, cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
  8 Behold, mine house is a house of aorder, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
  9 Will I aaccept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
  10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not aappointed?
  11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father aordained unto you, before the world was?
  12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall acome unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
  13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by athrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall bnot remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
  14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
  15 Therefore, if a aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
  16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
  17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
  18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
  19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
  20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
  21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
  22 For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
  23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
  24 This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
  25 aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
  26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.
  27 The ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall bnot be cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be edamned, saith the Lord.
  28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the alaw of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
  29 aAbraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
  30 aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose bloins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
  31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of aAbraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
  32 Go ye, therefore, and do the aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
  33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
  34 God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
  35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, acommanded it.
  36 Abraham was acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for crighteousness.
  37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
  38 David also received amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
  39 aDavid’s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.
  40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an aappointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
  41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed.
  42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has acommitted adultery.
  43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
  44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
  45 For I have conferred upon you the akeys and power of the priesthood, wherein I brestore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
  46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you aseal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bbind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you cremit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
  47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will acurse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
  48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you agive any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
  49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be awith thee even unto the bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I cseal upon you your dexaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your efather.
  50 Behold, I have seen your asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.
  57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for aSatan bseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his cexaltation and glory.
  58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
  59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.
  60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
  61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
  62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
  63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.
  64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
  65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
  66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

34 posted on 10/11/2010 6:38:55 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bryanw92
This is going to be an interesting thread.

Not if it goes off in a direction she doesn't like.

35 posted on 10/11/2010 6:40:27 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
To antagonize is to incur or to provoke hostility in others.

I wish I had a list of all the things that might "incur or provoke hostility" in Restornu; then I could be safe in posting.

36 posted on 10/11/2010 6:42:22 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu; Paragon Defender; greyfoxx39
When the critics make these claims, they never explain what LDS doctrine really is and what it is not. We absolutely DO NOT believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him.

So what you are saying is that The LDS Heavenly Father is subject to another God and that the LDS Heavenly Father is somehow not independent of the God that he worshiped when he was a man on another planet.

Do I have this correct?

37 posted on 10/11/2010 6:48:17 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Rad_J
We are his literal children and he is literally our Father as the scriptures say repeatedly.

My Dad always suspected SOMETHING funny went on!

38 posted on 10/11/2010 6:53:24 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
The OT denies the Coming of the only begotten Son of Hevenly Father Jesus Chirst,

and the NT denies that Heavenly Father is the Father of Jesus Christ!

HUH?

39 posted on 10/11/2010 6:55:44 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Please read that passage carefully!

Ok; NOW what?

40 posted on 10/11/2010 6:57:44 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu; All

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.” (LDS President Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6)

Sure sounds to me like old Joe thought that HE was just as good as God, but you just need to LEARN how to be a god, like all the other gods.


41 posted on 10/11/2010 6:59:32 PM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: Elsie
There is no WAY we could know what MORMONs think; but we sure DO know what MORMONism has written: namely D&C 132:58-66

Oops!

D&C 132:15-20

42 posted on 10/11/2010 6:59:55 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: P-Marlowe
When the critics make these claims, they never explain what LDS doctrine really is and what it is not. We absolutely DO NOT believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him.

So what you are saying is that The LDS Heavenly Father is subject to another God and that the LDS Heavenly Father is somehow not independent of the God that he worshiped when he was a man on another planet.

Do I have this correct?

***

Abraham 3

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

43 posted on 10/11/2010 7:02:03 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: restornu

I’ll take that as a “YES”.


44 posted on 10/11/2010 7:04:22 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: restornu

Oh I have resty, many times over in the context that you apparently fail to do. Note carefully how he differentiates between Zoe and bios. mormons get the two mixed up and in this page he destroys the concept of pre-existance. And where does man get Zoe from resty in Lewis’ world. Certainly not from mormon temple ordinances, works or rules.


45 posted on 10/11/2010 7:05:20 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: P-Marlowe

I already answered you it is not yes!

**

I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.


46 posted on 10/11/2010 7:07:48 PM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: Godzilla; Elsie; restornu; All

The thread is now “open” and all posts are restored.


47 posted on 10/11/2010 8:16:28 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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