Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Then I'd be more careful if I were you.
But what the scripture says has to do with how you process the information based on your culture, beliefs, language, etc.
I take those occasions as concrete evidence of Holy Spirit's personal leading
So does everyone else, FK.
Now, concerning why all Christians don't have the same interpretations it should be noted that all Christians are at different places in their respective walks with the Lord
So, all those who are way off out there, on the margins of Christianity, are being misguided by the Holy Spirit?
You said, I quote, "We have both seen nutjobs of all stripes use scripture to try to legitimate everything from adultery to abortion to homosexual conduct, etc. Those might be the easy ones, but I have definitely caught myself before trying to justify something I wound up deciding was wrong because of a more honest look at scripture."
That doesn't sound like "The Holy Spirit corrected me" but rather you corrected yourself based on your beliefs and personal standards. So, which is it?
Are you also suggesting that those nutjobs are not guided by the Holy Spirit or that they are guided into wrong conclusions since God already predestined them to hell, so he is only deceiving them intentionally to make sure they don't find that "narrow path" on their own but to wander off and be lost???
I don't think I could have made the jump directly so I believe it was necessary to get me there in steps, which is what I think Holy Spirit did.
You are certainly entitled to think so, and I can't really argue with that, but this flies in the face what you said before, that you "caught yours self" trying to justify something...and that you "wound up deciding [it] was wrong." Besides, you don't think people change their minds as they experience life from different angles?
All of this makes sense because Christian growth, whether through the leading of the Magisterium or Holy Spirit directly, is a life long process
So is life, FK, every aspect of it, every day, and that holds even for animals. Life is a learning process, not necessarily a divine learning process.
If what you are saying is true, then the certainty expressed by Protestants cannot be an absolute certainty, but merely a hope. Hence, a self-contradiction.
There was never such a thing as A Greek LXX.
When the first "fact" is an untruth there is no need to continue with the propaganda.
“”There was never such a thing as A Greek LXX.””
So what,we don’t have a complete original of versions ,but we have Jesus and the Apostles quoting from what we think the Church had
There is never such a thing as A hebrew New Testament either,so what’s your point?
We have been down this road before and all the roads lead to the catholic/orthodox church to verify Christianity and NT Scripture
OR, there is no original New Testament either. All we have are copies of copies of copies of copies. So what's the point?
I did not show you a verse "where it says that the church is not to teach outside of scripture", because it would not be necessary to a church that taught within the bounds of Scripture. For example, no scripture verse says that we should avoid going to x-rated movies. Correct? Yet we know from Scripture that we should think upon things that are good, true, honest, virtuous and pure (Phil. 4:8). We are also told to avoid the near occasion of sin, to not commit adultery (Jesus said it was in mind or body) and in whatsoever we do, we should do it to glorify God. The duty of the "church" in a teaching capacity is to guide the young in the faith to lead them in what the faith of Christ means and what living for Christ means - all we are given from Scripture, because God did not leave us without a reliable authoritative source for that truth.
However, this in no way has ever meant that the leadership of the church can confect entire doctrines our of whole cloth and require obedience and adherence to them under threat of eternal damnation. THAT was NOT the "sanction", as you call it, given to the church. Nothing should be taught that is in contradiction of Holy Scripture. This "Sola Scriptura is a superstition that is contrary to scripture" garbage is just that, garbage. We know that because our Lord himself referred to "it is written" whenever a question of faith came up. There were certainly numerous ECFs that taught and believed that as well. I wonder why you all are SO adverse to the idea that Scripture is the sole source for doctrines of the faith seeing as how you constantly assert that nothing the "Church" teaches is contrary to Scripture anyway. Those of us who know better see right through that contention, yet it still strikes me as strange that you object to the concept that the Holy Bible remains the authority for truths of the Christian faith.
Finally, get over your blindness concerning "sola fide". The few verses you constantly cite to "prove" your assertion that salvation comes through faith AND good works is obliterated by hundreds of Scriptures that say it is by faith alone that we are saved. We know that James is speaking TO believers ABOUT how their faith is observed by others. True faith DOES result in a changed life and that is how we can see that faith is genuine. You do a great disservice to all in twisting it to mean that somehow whatever deeds we do assist with the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ. When you do that you are frustrating the grace of God himself because you think that righteousness comes by works and in doing that, you are essentially saying Christ's death is in vain (Gal. 2:21).
Why, their works. That sheep are not goats and that the difference is as stark as between two different species is true. But that difference is their works. How do we know that? Because Christ was anticipating that question and he answered:
Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat. etc.
and conversely,
Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eatSo, the reason sheep are sheep is that they did the good work, exemplified by feeding the hungry, and the goats are goats because they did not. That reason is explicitly given: come, for you did X and depart, for you did not do X.
Similarly a tree is good when it bears good fruit, and it is bad when it is not. Fruit is, of course, the fruit of good works.
This is not much of a picture of works, unless you are going to say that sheep do only inherently good works and goats do only evil works
The passage does not say how Christ is going to judge the mixed cases: those who fed some hungry but not every time they could do so, etc. But it gives us the big picture: that we are judged according to our works. Note that it was not Christ's intention in that passage to give us a manual of how we could judge others, because, evidently the passage does not go into that critical detail and, as we recall, Christ advised against it anyway (Matthew 7:1).
No, the word of God declares whether or not men are saved. If a man has been given God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, that man can be confident that God is faithful and He will lead, protect and save him through this life into the next. The great deceit is that Rome does not teach such assurance to its members, but instead keeps them weary and fearful and uncertain.
Rome lies. Believe the word of God and be assured.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." -- Romans 10:9
Out of one corner of their mouths, the Reformed teach, in hideous opposition to Scripture, including Paul, that each man has already been selected for either heaven or hell, and out of the other corner, you instruct us to believe of our own efforts.
Learn the truth.
I do not take or eschew action at the bidding of the likes of you. I do not take instruction from religious charlatans who constantly, repeatedly and with great glee post great departures from Scripture and from the Church of Jesus Christ Almighty. Gimme a call when the number of your entire baptized religion drops below the average shopping day in the West Edmonton Mall (excluding the hockey arena).
.. and of us choosing to walk in these works (Eph 2:10). He who enters heaven is holy, and the only way to heaven is to come out a sheep according to Matthew 25. Yes, I agree that all that sactification wouild not be possible without Christ being holiness itself. We "partake of his nature" (2 Peter 1:4)
It isn't an insult if it is true.
Here’s some book for you maybe you will get some larnin’
Thanks. Any Christ in your Christianity, or do you rely only on misinterpreted snippets of Paul and the OT? Now about that kin thing . Just because they their forefather was Abraham’s other son does not mean they worship they same God as Abraham did . Their idol worship and hatred keeps them blinded from the truth and I am starting to see how it isn’t just them that are blinded from the truth for the same reason.
How many children of the Reformation fit the bill that you describe here?
Well, not works alone outside of the superabundant merit of Christ, correct. However, with Christ our righteousness does exceed that of the Pharisees, and we know that by examining the works of the law, which constituted pharisaic righteousness and comparing them with the good works demanded of us for our salvation by the Sermon on the Mount. With Christ, anyone is capable of feeding the hungry and sheltering the poor, -- we have a communion of saints in heaven filled with such people.
my yoke is sweet and my burden light. (Matthew 11:30)
I would say that regardless of the number or nature of the sins of any two given people, if they both repented of all of them and then both loved God the same, that is, in the Biblical sense (truly), then they would both be saved. Therefore, God would contradict His own word if He sent one to Heaven and one to hell.
So, annalex, once the Church the Body of Christ is complete, how much time does “it” spend in purgatory? And is “it” there in pieces with part of “it” in heaven awaiting the other parts, or is it there as a whole, awaiting everyone’s holiness before entering heaven?
Jesus will draw all men to him; God wishes all men to repent and be saved. It would sure seem a contradiction, my friend.
However, when the Church, continuous since Christ claims to be led by God, we believe in the promises that He made to His church.
That's the reason it is so critical to have ONE source of recognized truth to refer back to and correct doctrine against.
And we Christians do.
That's something I don't see happening in the Catholic church. The laity is so intimidated by their priests and so in awe of their position, that I can't imagine any of them daring to challenge them. I've seen all kinds of questionable behavior excused by the laity because if the priest did it, he wouldn't sin so it must be OK.
Not in my parish. Our ex Baptist priest is very much an ally in the fight for Christianity against the liberals and those who would destroy Christianity for their own ends. My intention last week at Mass was for Archbishop, now Cardinal Burke who accepted a resignation letter from a bishop in Brazil who supported a Communist candidate. The point was that the bishop (58 years old) never submitted a resignation letter. Tough. He's gone.
We are jettisoning the trips to namby pamby land in order to find self confidence for the crybaby jackwads. I suspect that the Catholic Church of your description never existed; it sure does not exist now.
I asked:
“What makes the good tree good? Or, to put it in the language of Matthew 25:31-46, what makes a sheep a sheep?”
You answered:
“Why, their works. That sheep are not goats and that the difference is as stark as between two different species is true. But that difference is their works. How do we know that? Because Christ was anticipating that question and he answered:”
So, if I lay an egg I’m a chicken? If I walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and swim like a duck, that makes me a duck? Don’t you hear how ridiculous your argument sounds here? And that is not the worst of it. You are making Christ say the precise opposite of what He is saying.
Then you say:
“The passage does not say how Christ is going to judge the mixed cases: those who fed some hungry but not every time they could do so, etc. But it gives us the big picture: that we are judged according to our works. Note that it was not Christ’s intention in that passage to give us a manual of how we could judge others, because, evidently the passage does not go into that critical detail and, as we recall, Christ advised against it anyway (Matthew 7:1).”
“Note that it was not Christ’s intention in that passage to give us a manual of how we could judge others ...” You’re kidding, right? Don’t you see that you are so intent on proving the doctrine you want to prove here that you aren’t even reading the text.
The passage, Matthew 25:31-46, is about judgment day. There will be no mixed cases. None. Zero. There are sheep and there are goats. There are those who belong to the Good Shepherd’s flock and those who don’t. That is the point. You don’t have to worry about “Jesus’ intent,” His words are as plain and clear as the sun in the sky above.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
It isn’t an insult if it is true.
“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’
(so muslims have a plan of salvation )
#2 And this is also Catholic doctrine :
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved” -Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215
(you know that whole Papal Infallibility thing)
I get it now according to Catholics the Protestants are heretics cause they won’t bow to the Pope but muslims are in the plan of salvation even though they don’t bow down to the Pope . (Oh wait the Pope bowed down and kissed the muslim book )
In the swamp we at have the learnin’ that these two things are Papal contradictions .
Now remember your own words -It isn’t an insult if it is true.
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