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To: Forest Keeper; stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
"God's sovereignty has nothing to do with it. Only man's sovereignty matters in the end."

God's "sovereignty" has everything to do with it, FK. God is the "παντοκράτορα" the Almighty Ruler of All Existences, because He is the Creator of Existence itself and everything else on earth and in heaven, visible and invisible. What possible sovereignty can mankind have that does not have its origins in Him? "I realize the argument might be that God wanted it that way, but I can't accept it. :)"

Well, if God created us, as we are told, in His image and likeness, we would be endowed with the divine attribute of Free Will, would we not? The Church has always taught that mankind was created having the potential to become like God. That potential was lost in the Fall and restored by the Incarnation. But I would like to hear why you think God created mankind. Did He create some for theosis and some for damnation and if so, why?

The office is closed today...over my objection. I made the staff each give back one lump of coal!

And to all of you and yours,

Come, O faithful, let us raise our minds to things divine and behold the heavenly condescension that has appeared to us from above in Bethlehem.

May Christ our True God, whose Nativity we celebrate, through the intercessions of His holy and pure Mother, through the power of the life giving Cross, through the protection of the Angelic Powers, through the prayers of St. John the Baptist, the supplications of the Holy, Glorious and Most Honored and Praiseworthy Apostles, Martyrs, Fathers and Mothers of our Faith, and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us.

Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God have mercy on us and save us!

5,794 posted on 12/24/2010 5:32:52 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
What possible sovereignty can mankind have that does not have its origins in Him?

Man can have total sovereignty over his own salvation if the belief is that God delegated His own sovereignty away from Himself. If God actually made that transfer, the sovereignty then belongs to man, not God.

Well, if God created us, as we are told, in His image and likeness, we would be endowed with the divine attribute of Free Will, would we not?

I don't think it is comparable. I would say that only God's will is truly free. Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will. Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time. That's what Jesus prayed for.

The Church has always taught that mankind was created having the potential to become like God. That potential was lost in the Fall and restored by the Incarnation. But I would like to hear why you think God created mankind. Did He create some for theosis and some for damnation and if so, why?

The standard general answer for why God created man is for His good pleasure, as in:

Rev. 4:11 : “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

We know God had no need for man, and that He wasn't "lonely" or anything like that. We can only say that it pleased Him to create us and establish a relationship with us in worship and prayer. He wishes to be our God and for us to be His people.

In this light I would say that God created no one FOR THE PURPOSE of reprobating them. He created all of us for the same purpose, and part of His good pleasure is evidently that some will be with Him in eternal life and some will not. Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.


6,139 posted on 12/29/2010 12:31:16 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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