Posted on 11/02/2010 7:45:16 AM PDT by Salvation
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
-- Isaiah 53:5
bookmarking this excellent thread!
Great posts...thank you so much.
The body of Christ was placed in the tomb for three days during which his spirit, according to the Nicene Creed, descended into Hell. Likely he also ascended into heaven. His spirit could have accompanied the thief on the cross to his entrance in heaven. Yet, Who knows? Maybe his Father demanded he spend three days in purgatory. Anything is possible, especially if you are a Catholic.
Sorry, friend, but no.
Hebrews 10:10 means what it means. Christ’s sacrifice was once for all. He offered “one sacrifice for sins forever” (Hebrews 10:12) so there is no need for a purgatory.
If Christ paid the price in full, there is no need for purgatory. If He didn’t, he’s not perfect and therefore not the Son of God. Your choice.
But bless your day anyway.
Was that your white Ford Bronco I saw parked at the golf course?
My white _________ just returned from church where I lead a Bible Study on Genesis this morning.
And you?
Are you speaking for yourself or the Religion Moderator?
It is interesting to know that Luther did believe in purgatory, though he was not able to find any support from Scripture. He therefore argued that purgatory should not be considered as Churchs dogma, i.e. those who do not believe in it are not heretics. Below is what he wrote on purgatory (emphasis in bold is mine):
The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted [Unterricht auf etlich Artikel. WA 2, 70] many times, though I have found no way of proving it incontrovertibly from Scripture or reason. I find in Scripture that Christ, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Job, David, Hezekiah, and some others tasted hell in this life. This I think was purgatory, and it seems not beyond belief that some of the dead suffer in like manner. Tauler [c. 1300 to 1361, Dominican monk who, under the influence of his teacher Meister Eckhart, taught at Strassburg a deeply mystical piety] has much to say about it, and, in short, I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result.
There is only one thing that I have criticized, namely, the way in which my opponents refer to purgatory passages in Scripture which are so inapplicable that it is shameful. For example, they apply Ps. 66[:12], We went through fire and through water, though the whole psalm sings of the sufferings of the saints, whom no one places in purgatory. And they quote St. Paul in I Cor. 3[:13-15] when he says of the fire of the last day that it will test the good works, and by it some will be saved because they keep the faith, though their work may suffer loss. They turn this fire also into a purgatory, according to their custom of twisting Scripture and making it mean whatever they want.
And similarly they have arbitrarily dragged in the passage in Matt. 12[:32] in which Christ says, Whoever speaks blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come. Christ means here that he shall never be forgiven, as Mark 3[:29] explains, saying, Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin. To be sure, even St. Gregory [Gregory the Great, Dialogorum Libri, IV, chap. 89. Migne 77, 396] interprets the passage in Matthew 12 to mean that some sins will be forgiven in the world to come, but St. Mark does not permit such an interpretation, and he counts for more than all the doctors.
I have discussed all this in order to show that no one is bound to believe more than what is based on Scripture, and those who do not believe in purgatory are not to be called heretics, if otherwise they accept Scripture in its entirety, as the Greek church does. The gospel compels me to believe that St. Peter and St. James are saints, but at the same time it is not necessary to believe that St. Peter is buried in Home [Rome] and St. James at Compostella [Santiago de Compostella, a famous place of pilgrimage in Spain] and that their bodies are still there, for Scripture does not report it. Again, there is no sin in holding that none of the saints whom the pope canonizes are saints, and no saint will be offended, for, as a matter of fact, there are many saints in heaven of whom we know nothing, and certainly not that they are saints, yet they are not offended, and do not consider us heretics because we do not know of them. The pope and his partisans play this game only in order to fabricate many wild articles of faith and thus make it possible to silence and suppress the true articles of the Scripture.
But their use of the passage in II Macc. 12[:43], which tells how Judas Maceabeus sent money to Jerusalem for prayers to be offered for those who fell in battle, proves nothing, for that book is not among the books of Holy Scripture, and, as St. Jerome says, it is not found in a Hebrew version, the language in which all the books of the Old Testament are written. [Jerome, Preface to the Books of Samuel and Malachi. Migne 28, 600ff] In other respects, too, this book deserves little authority, for it contradicts the first Book of Maccabees in its description of King Antiochus, and contains many other fables which destroy its credibility. But even were the book authoritative, it would still be necessary in the case of so important an article that at least one passage out of the chief books [of the Bible] should support it, in order that every word might be established through the mouth of two or three witnesses. It must give rise to suspicion that in order to substantiate this doctrine no more than one passage could be discovered in the entire Bible; moreover this passage is in the least important and most despised book. Especially since so much depends on this doctrine which is so important that, indeed, the papacy and the whole hierarchy are all but built upon it, and derive all their wealth and honor from it. Surely, the majority of the priests would starve to death if there were no purgatory. Well, they should not offer such vague and feeble grounds for our faith!
Career of the Reformer II, Luthers Works, Vol. 32
Nothing about dung, snow, or aliens? I would have thought you would offer a link from a Lutheran i.e. not Catholic, not blog) source, one that cites the exact quote that you offered up in a Caucus thread:
Luther thought of us as a dung hill, completely depraved, and God covered us with his righteousness like snow on the surface, but we were still dung underneath. For Luther we merely have declared of us a justitia aliena (an alien justice).
It appears that I am more interested in the facts — what Luther actually said and believed. And it appears that you are more interested in the statement of the author about what Luther would have called Catholics.
Do you think that might be a little hyperbole on the part of the author. I could not find the exact quote, but will look for the justice one.
It appears that I am more interested in the facts — what Luther actually said and believed. And it appears that you are more interested in the statement of the author about what Luther would have called Catholics.
Do you think that might be a little hyperbole on the part of the author. I could not find the exact quote, but will look for the justice one.
If you want to read a book try this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R1GUJVY5Z2I58K
It appears that I am more interested in the facts — what Luther actually said and believed. And it appears that you are more interested in the statement of the author about what Luther would have called Catholics.
Do you think that might be a little hyperbole on the part of the author. I could not find the exact quote, but will look for the justice one.
If you want to read a book try this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R1GUJVY5Z2I58K
The complete search is here:
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7kTZi9BMZXcBOz.l87UF;_ylc=X1MDMjE0MjQ3ODk0OARfcgMyBGZyA3NmcARuX2dwcwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc3ljBHF1ZXJ5A21hcnRpbiBsdXRoZXIganVzdGl0aWEgYWxpZW5hIARzYW8DMQ—?p=martin+luther+justitia+aliena+&fr=sfp&fr2=&iscqry=
"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
-- John 7:24
Another great post.
Another reason to consider Purgatory is because of Christian backsliders. One may accept Christ as Lord and Savior and then fall back into terrible sinfulness. If one died without repenting of that sinfulness, one logically could not go straight to Heaven, a place of spiritual perfection.
A believer who was in the state of sin could be offered the opportunity to suffer in atonement for a while in order to expiate the imperfection and guilt and then, having paid the last penny, enter Heaven to experience union with God.
It is simple logic that God cannot be joined to anything sinful. I think Purgatory is a very beautiful belief: even after death God is thirsting for our love and willing to give us that last avenue so we can be with Him.
And Catholics have similar opinions of non-Catholics.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2618333/posts?page=381#381
Your point is?
Of course you could because any who are redeemed have a new nature within them, which is what makes it to heaven. it's not the old nature purified. It's a new one that is righteous by faith.
The old one has been crucified with Christ and it is dead spiritually, so when we die physically, it's gone for good.
The reason that we still have problems with sin is because we still have habits and thought patterns which we still carry around in these physical corrupted bodies of ours.
It may be a "beautiful belief" the question is...is it true?
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