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99 & 1/2 Won’t Do – A Meditation on Purgatory
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | November 1, 2010 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 11/02/2010 7:45:16 AM PDT by Salvation

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To: presently no screen name

There IS only one Church: the one Christ started. The Catholic Church. The thousands of other Christian churches are weak off-shoots that were started by men after they pruned the Scriptures.

I see the same trite and vain repetitions of false and hackneyed phrases in your latest posts against the Catholic Church. There is AMPLE truth posted in this thread alone that refutes your statements about the Catholic Church.

Christians-lite can follow preacher Billy Bob (who got religion a couple of years ago) and his “inspired” interpretations of the sadly desecrated and dissected bible, if they want to. I guess it feels better for them to find an interpretation that they agree with, rather than conform their thoughts/actions to Christ’s will, no matter how difficult. That’s their choice, and, as Christ said, there are many rooms in Heaven.

The final Truth is this: the Bible stood for hundreds of years as the Word of God, untouched. Then men, full of their own importance, began to cut parts out and whittle it away. What arrogance. What folly! Any Christian should be FURIOUS about that. Every Christian should be insulted by that man-made bible. The fruits of that folly are the proof: there a a multitude of churches and interpretations now- exactly the OPPOSITE of what Christ stated was His will for his Church. The entire construct of Protestantism is built on sand.

I am thrilled to be Catholic and follow the original teachings of Christ to the letter, no matter how tough. I praise God that Christ prayed for His Church to remain united and that He sent the Spirit to guide it forever. We are the faithful remnant, holding fast to the original, to the end.

I will pray for you, presently no screen name.


101 posted on 11/06/2010 9:11:07 AM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: RnMomof7
The book is available on Amazon... buy it if you doubt it

No, I don't plan to buy a book that has one line taken out of context. Do you own the book? Did you take it out of context? I'm asking, because while that is possible, there is another possibility, which I have presented. Gratuitous quote mining from the writings of the saints, looking for remarks which can be taken out of context to inflame anti-Catholic sentiment or bolster anti-Catholic arguments are, in my experience on the RF, much more likely. Reformers do it with the Holy Scriptures all the time.

So, no, I won't be buying the book that you say it's from, just to find out if the anti-Catholic website took it out of context. If a reformed poster on this thread owns the St. Catherine of Siena book containing the quote, let them put it in context. If you own the book, then you can.

102 posted on 11/06/2010 9:38:39 AM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Melian
Additional Scripture to support Purgatory: 2 Mac 12: 42-46, Mt 12:32, Luke 12: 58, Luke 16:19-31, 1 Cor 3: 10-15, 1 Pet 3:19, Rev 21: 27.

Did you bother to read any of the NT scriptures? Not ONE of them teaches purgatory ...not ONE

These are official Catholic proof texts, taken out of context ...with the PRESUPPOSITION OF PURGATORY.. they certainly do not teach it..

Consider this......scripture CLEARLY teaches HELL.....Jesus spoke on Hell more than heaven ...if there was a purgatory Christ would have taught it clearly ...To believe in purgatory is to commit the very damning sin that is addressed Mat12:32-33 that you gave me..

Either Jesus saves us or we save our selves, either Jesus was the propitiation for our sins or He was not, Either Jesus redeemed us or He did not

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

103 posted on 11/06/2010 9:59:09 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Judith Anne

You do not have to believe it, after all Catholics do not believe Christ saved them ..but they fall on their face before the pope.. this is America where people are free to worship satan himself if they want too.


104 posted on 11/06/2010 10:02:07 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Melian
Matt 7:21 “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” A life lived with faith is what is required. Not just faith.

I can not believe that anyone could read this without understanding it..

It teaches exactly the opposite of what you are saying. It is a condemnation of a works based salvation ...now IN CONTEXT

Hear Jesus teaching on salvation by works

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So the works do not make one good..but they tell us the condition of the the relationship with God

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ NEVER knew them, they were never saved then lost.. HE NEVER knew them , They pleaded their case on works.. BUT their fruit was rotten to the core, because its roots were not in Christ

Scripture tells us what is not of faith is sin... so all those works done to save oneself are in fact sin..because they show no faith in Christ

105 posted on 11/06/2010 10:15:37 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: RnMomof7; Melian

Frankly, your post looks as though it has made Melian’s case, rather than whatever you were trying to get across.


106 posted on 11/06/2010 10:23:21 AM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne
Not surprised you can not read scripture either Judith.. Jesus was condemning a man that thought his works earned his salvation... man the word of God is always true

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

107 posted on 11/06/2010 10:26:48 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Melian
I will pray for you, presently no screen name

How sweet but I'm not going to purgatory. I'm a child of the Most Higher, saved by Blood of The Lamb and have every spiritual blessing. I could go on and on about the blessings of My God but don't want you to be angst how the god you serve makes you pay up when you are shipped out! And how you're told to pray to dead saints and I am told to go boldly to the throne of The Creator of All, The Almighty God for all my needs. Seems your god directs you to the bottom of the barrel crumbs.

It's no wonder you seem not to be able to let go of me.
108 posted on 11/06/2010 10:33:43 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: RnMomof7
Not surprised you can not read scripture either Judith..

Mind-reading is against the rules. The fact that others interpret it differently than you does not mean they cannot read scripture. Again, with the "spiritual discernment" baloney.

God will "discern" and I am very comfortable with that. No unschooled anonymous internet church lady is my "discerner" or "interpreter of Scripture."

109 posted on 11/06/2010 10:35:21 AM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne
You told me what you thought, so I did not have to read your mind Judith... Interesting that the scripture quote I gave said man is to discern...my lament was most catholics can not discern the scriptures God speaks through

I never ask anyone to believe me or trust me..I try to point them to the word of God and hope the spirit of God illuminates it to them

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

110 posted on 11/06/2010 10:43:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Judith Anne; RnMomof7
Again, with the "spiritual discernment" baloney.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Scripture is baloney to you? The Holy Spirit as Teacher is baloney to you?
111 posted on 11/06/2010 10:47:55 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; RnMomof7; Melian
Scripture is baloney to you? The Holy Spirit as Teacher is baloney to you?

See, that's why I never trust a reformer to "discern." Twist someone else's statement, every time. Reformers' so-called spiritual discernment is a joke -- baloney, in other words.

And now, I'm busy helping put up a small chandelier, so have at it with the 7th grade remarks and self-congratulatory lauds.

112 posted on 11/06/2010 12:48:39 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne
Again, with the "spiritual discernment" baloney.

What's the joke? I don't see it. Is it you want me to read your mind so you can have another chance to whine and hit the abuse button?
113 posted on 11/06/2010 1:04:35 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Jesus Himself said we’d have to pay to the last penny. It’s not my teaching; it’s His.

The earliest Christians prayed to the dead saints and martyrs. It’s not my teaching; it’s what the first Christians did.

The Protestant Bible was edited by men after standing intact for hundreds of years after it was collected and declared sacred Scripture. It’s an abomination.

The Blood of the Lamb does save: it is shed again at every Catholic Mass. Christ told us so. He also told us not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter Heaven. He made it very clear He requires more than lip service; He requires works.

These are all facts. As long as you keep responding with untruths and negativity, I’ll keep responding to you. I consider it my duty to continue to try to enlighten you. From the tone of your answers, I think you feel the Hound of Heaven tracking you.

If one is sure, one wouldn’t need to go negative or say things that are untrue.


114 posted on 11/06/2010 2:59:05 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: RnMomof7

“Christ NEVER knew them, they were never saved then lost.. HE NEVER knew them , They pleaded their case on works.. BUT their fruit was rotten to the core, because its roots were not in Christ”

You’ve illustrated my point exactly. They THOUGHT they were saved, but unless they actually produced the good fruit in accordance with God’s will, they were not.

Actions based on God’s will are required for salvation. Without that, one is cast into the fire. Matt 7:22 is more of the same: Evangelicals and other Protestants can talk until the cows come home about God, and how they are the only ones who are definitely saved, and they even demonstrate some spiritual gifts- but the fact is, Christ made it very clear there is no assurance and that it is very difficult even for believers to enter Heaven.

Frankly, I think the holier-than-thou, “I’m the only one who’s saved” message that many Protestants espouse is a work of iniquity. It’s the inverse of Christ’s actual message of love and humility.

I understand this chapter of Matthew very well- and I am secure in the knowledge that hundreds of great saints, dozens of theologians, thousands of martyrs, the 12 Apostles, St. Paul, the multitude of priests who study theology for many years, and the entire Church today all interpret this passage as I do.

Of course, ALL those amazing Christians are wrong; and you, Blessed RnMomof7, must be right. You alone seem to have the real understanding of this passage, as you read it in that butchered bible.

No. Catch a clue: you are reading through a dark glass. A glass that was distorted by mere (pompous) men.

There is one Truth; not two thousand interpretations of the truth.

One Truth. One True Church. One God. One Bible.


115 posted on 11/06/2010 3:21:56 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: RnMomof7

Purgatory is taught as clearly as the Trinity is. Like the Trinity, which I assume you believe in, it is alluded to and an extension of the logic revealed in certain of Christ’s statements.

If you find enough evidence for the Trinity in the New Testament, you should also find enough evidence for Purgatory.

If you look with honesty and openness at the original texts of the New Testament, you will see it.

Each of these passages provides the logic that caused the Spirit-led leaders of Christ’s Church to declare there must be a place like Purgatory: 2 Mac 12: 42-46, Mt 12:32, Luke 12: 58, Luke 16:19-31, 1 Cor 3: 10-15, 1 Pet 3:19, Rev 21: 27.


116 posted on 11/06/2010 3:27:20 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: Judith Anne

Agreed, Judith Anne. I’ve attempted to shed light on this special brand of darkness. I consider it my duty.

Thank you for adding to the light— on this thread AND with your chandelier!


117 posted on 11/06/2010 3:29:36 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: Melian

My dear new friend.. they did think they deserved to be saved because they did good works.. but works done to earn your salvation are not pleasing to God.. He is not fooled..they do not glorify HIM , to Him they are sin.. self serving acts.. the only thing that pleases God is HIS work in you and through you.

In context what that chapter tells us is that HE produces the fruit... the fruit does not attach itself to the limb or the limb attach itself to the vine , the fruit that pleases him is produced by a limb that IS ALREADY attached to Him

Works that are pleasing to God are the fruit of our salvation NOT ITS ROOTS

I think the pride ALL falls on the catholic side because they really think their good works will help save them.. salvation is all of them ..they earn it and they deserve it.. salvation then is not a gift but wages due

I am nothing special, scripture says God chooses the foolish things of this earth ... I can never do one thing that could merit Gods grace, or commend me to God.. I do not deserve to be His child.. yet He saved me, and calls me His..

How does one thank God for such grace and mercy? On the day I was saved 34 years ago, I remember asking “why me God ?Why me? “ To this day I still ask the same question.. I am a sinner, saved by grace and kept by His work, not mine

You think it pride to proclaim the gift.. I think it pride to think I could earn it, or deserve it..


118 posted on 11/06/2010 4:26:27 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: RnMomof7

The parable of the barren fig tree contradicts your post. Christ cursed the fig tree for not bearing fruit. He expected the fig tree to produce on it’s own. That was its job. We are made to know and love God and we are expected to produce fruit from that love. We have free will and we must choose to produce good works that are in keeping with God’s will. Christ requires that we demonstrate love of God through actions.

I never said salvation is through works alone or begins with works. I say works are important to salvation. You are not quoting me correctly. They are a component of salvation and Christ made that clear in His words and through His parables.

To whom much is given, much is required. We are given the amazing gift of salvation but we are then required to continue to be worthy of it. Responsibility to live as God, whom we claim to love and believe in, comes with it.

St. James, one of the three apostles continually singled out by Christ for special honor, also believed that works are required. If you read the unedited writings of James, you will see that I am correct. The Son of Thunder, the first Apostle to by martyred, put works in their proper place. He loved, and was loved by, Christ. He looked on His face and saw all His miracles and received the gift of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Do you also deny James’ ability to discern Christ’s wishes?

History, tradition, Sacred Scripture, two thousand years of great saints and theologians, multitudes of martyrs, and every faithful follower of the Catholic Church do not agree with your man-made interpretation of this issue. The weight of Christianity’s facts are against your position. Your position on this issue was the result of Luther’s disillusionment— it did not come from God; it came from Luther’s own mind. He took the words that DID come from God and cut them to ribbons. How can you tolerate that?

I feel the same as you about the gift of my faith. But I add, “Why was I so lucky to be born and raised Catholic and have the fullness of faith at my fingertips from birth?” I do not have to settle for part of the message; I receive ALL the Good News and I thank God for that gift every day. I am so thankful and grateful for the gift of the Sacraments. I don’t just have the gift of the Word; I have the additional gift of the outward signs/miracles instituted by Christ to give grace. I have the Sacraments that tie me in mysterious ways to Christ that are indescribable, ancient, and miraculous. Christ is in me and with me in the realest sense- in fact, through all my senses! Thanks be to God for this indescribable gift!

I hope someday you will investigate the original Scriptures with an open heart from the courageous position of objective inquiry. Many Protestants only read with the intention of finding something to pin on Catholics, rather than let the Word take them where it will.

The actual Word will take you somewhere strange, miraculous, and unexpected: the Catholic Church.


119 posted on 11/06/2010 5:24:14 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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To: Melian

Whoops, left out a word: Responsibility to live as God asks, whom we claim to love and believe in, comes with it.


120 posted on 11/06/2010 5:26:58 PM PDT by Melian (Catholicism is the Chuck Norris of religions. See Matt 7: 21)
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