Mary on tree of life...on drawing of men

Bible | 2010 | bibletruth

[RnMomof7]

Is not Mary called “The seat of Wisdom?

http://marymediatrix.com/morality

So if proverbs says “ She (Wisdom) is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast.” —Prov. 3:18

Can it not be read that

Pro 3:18 She ( Mary) [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that retaineth her

Just askin ...

[Tax-chick]

I like to make grain salads (barley, bulgur, buckwheat, quinoa, and so on) with vegetables and cheese. High fiber meals are very good for the innards! My family gets cranky, though. They want meat!

[Mad Dawg]

Perhaps you could study Old Norse and read the Sagas in the original ...

Now THERE's an idea!

Have you heard of Sigrid Undset? She wrote a biography of Catherine of Siena but also historical novels about medieval Scandanavia. I am reading the biography but I have one of her novels as well. I'm essited.

[Tax-chick]

Anoreth was working on Old Norse. Her godmother back in Texas is of Norwegian descent, and was a big fan of the “Kristin Lavransdottir” novels. I haven’t read them, myself, but maybe I should give them another try. It’s been (ulp) over 20 years!

[Mad Dawg]

Is not Mary called “The seat of Wisdom?

Well, if one is going to work the language, that means not that she IS Wisdom anymore than the chair I'm sitting in is me.

(References to the amplitude of my posterior will be studiously ignored.)

I mean there's a whole family of these images. She's "the ark" because Jesus is the Torah and the Bread from Heaven. She's the Holy City because God dwelt in her. So she's the "Seat of Wisdom" because Jesus took his 9 month seat within her.

At least, that's how I've always "parsed" them.

And what I like about this family is that it always implies the derivative quality of Mary's 'glory.' The ark, while impressive, is amazing because of lies within it, not because of itself. And so with the City and the Seat.

SO, embracing and holding the seat while letting the One who sat there go would be silly.

[Mad Dawg]

How does one know if a tradition is from God or men?

Shut up and do what father says.

Ooops. Did I say something wrong?

Seriously, I think one tries to dope out what the Magisterium is and has recourse to it. The basics, are clear. The Nicene Creed is a start. But then I think it comes down to what you want to know. When I want to root around in some particular I go to my learned friends and to the footnotes in the Catechism.

Of course, for us everything depends on God's promise not to abandon the Church to error, though He sho' lets her flirt with it more than I like.

[RnMomof7]

I mean there's a whole family of these images. She's "the ark" because Jesus is the Torah and the Bread from Heaven. She's the Holy City because God dwelt in her. So she's the "Seat of Wisdom" because Jesus took his 9 month seat within her.

The ark was a type of Christ not MARY ... It was a picture of Christ.. it was the very heart of the tabernacle ... it was where God met with His people

4. The Symbolism Of The Ark There is no question but that the Ark was a figure of spiritual things as was the entire tabernacle (Hebrews 9:8-9). It was a type or pattern of things in Heaven (Hebrews 9:23, Revelation 11:19). Let us contemplate some of the particular aspects of this symbolism: A. The Wood - The shittim wood used in the construction of the Ark has always been viewed as a type of Christ's human nature (John 1:14). It points to the condescension of Christ in coming in the form of a man (Isaiah 53:2).

B. The Gold - The Ark was overlaid with gold inside and out. This has always been seen as a type of Christ’s divine nature (John 1:1). The wood and the gold united in one Ark reveal the two natures of Christ united in one person (I Timothy 3:16).

C. The Ark's Contents - In Hebrews 9:4 the contents of the Ark are listed. There is a symbolic significance associated with each of these items:

(1) The stone tables of the law received by Moses on Mt. Sinai were placed in the Ark and gave it the name "Ark of the Covenant." This pointed to Christ as the one who not only kept the law but had it in His heart (Psalm 40:7-8, Galatians 4:4). In Christ the law was fully honored while at the same time mercy was made possible (Psalm 85:10).

(2) Aaron's rod that budded was placed in the Ark. A careful reading of Numbers 16 & 17 will show that this rod was a symbol and proof of priestly authority. In the Ark it signified that Christ was the great high priest of God's choosing.

(3) A pot of manna was kept in the Ark. This not only reminded Israel of God's provision for them but also pointed to Christ as the bread of life (Exodus 16:32-34, John 6:48-51).

D. The Golden Crown - The crown or cornice on the Ark called attention to the kingship of Christ. As a priest after the order of Melchizedek our Saviour is both priest and king (Hebrews 7:1 & 17). Some have referred to the Ark as God’s throne on earth.

E. The Mercy Seat - The Mercy Seat was the solid gold lid that set on the Ark. The Hebrew word translated "Mercy Seat" means propitiatory or the place where propitiation is made. To propitiate means to pacify or conciliate an angry party. God was angry with us as sinners but Christ became our propitiation or mercy seat (Romans 3:25, I John 4:10).

Once a year the great high priest would enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of sacrifices on the Mercy Seat (Leviticus 16:1-15). This was a foreshadowing of Christ's redemptive work (Hebrews 9:1-8, 12, 24). His blood enables the Father to forgive our sins (Ephesians 1:7). The publican in Luke 18:13 prayed for mercy. The Greek word translated "merciful" could be translated propitious or mercy seat.

F. The Golden Cherubim - The cherubim overlooking the Mercy Seat reveal the interest that the angels have in the saving work of Christ (I Peter 1:12, Ephesians 3:10).

G. The Pillar - The Shekinah glory that hovered over the Mercy Seat was a manifestation of God's glory (Psalm 80:1 & 99:1). God met with His people through the mediation of Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5). He dwelt with Israel at the place where the blood was sprinkled. The entire tabernacle revealed God dwelling with His people through Christ (John 1:14).

LINK

The OT is all about Jesus not His mother.. this is a fine example how devotion to her steals the glory from God..

[RnMomof7]

Of course, for us everything depends on God's promise not to abandon the Church to error, though He sho' lets her flirt with it more than I like.

Where is that promise found... it is contrary to the epistles themselves.

What is your measuring rod to know if a tradition is of men or God... Do you make the very ones that declare the tradition the final authority?

I have a great bridge to sell ya ... :)

[Mad Dawg]

I could as easily say that this is an example of how zealous renunciation of the Church compromises reason. You proposed a bogus understanding of the phrase "seat of wisdom" to Mary and suggested that you don't know the difference between a seat and the person sitting in it.

In a misguided effort to help clarify that difference I offered an array of similar distinctions.

So you changed the subject. I don't know what possible need this could meet, unless it's some kind of lust for disagreement and bogus victory. Since that does not interest me at all. So, fine. You win. Enjoy it.

[ViLaLuz]

Thanks for your effort to reply, but I don’t really care anymore. Terrible things happened to me and other children in our area because of our church leadership and I was eventually booted from the church. Even though years later I was asked to come back, after the truth came out, there’s no way I’d ever go back to worshipping Saints.

But there’s a good ending, I was born again.

[Salvation]

Would there even have been a Jesus without Mary?

Matthew
Chapter 1

1

^{1 2} The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2

Abraham became the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.

3

Judah became the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar. Perez became the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,

4

Ram the father of Amminadab. Amminadab became the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5

Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab. Boaz became the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth. Obed became the father of Jesse,

6

Jesse the father of David the king. David became the father of Solomon, whose mother had been the wife of Uriah.

7

³ Solomon became the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asaph.

8

Asaph became the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, Joram the father of Uzziah.

9

Uzziah became the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah.

10

Hezekiah became the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amos, ⁴ Amos the father of Josiah.

11

Josiah became the father of Jechoniah and his brothers at the time of the Babylonian exile.

12

After the Babylonian exile, Jechoniah became the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13

Zerubbabel the father of Abiud. Abiud became the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,

14

Azor the father of Zadok. Zadok became the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud,

15

Eliud the father of Eleazar. Eleazar became the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,

16

Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

17

Thus the total number of generations from Abraham to David is fourteen generations; from David to the Babylonian exile, fourteen generations; from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah, fourteen generations. ⁵

18

⁶ Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, ⁷ but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.

19

Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, ⁸ yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.

20

Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord ⁹ appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.

21

She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, ¹⁰ because he will save his people from their sins."

22

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

23

¹¹ "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means "God is with us."

24

When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.

25

He had no relations with her until she bore a son, ¹² and he named him Jesus.

 

And the footnotes:

 

Footnotes

¹ [1:1-2:23] The infancy narrative forms the prologue of the gospel. Consisting of a genealogy and five stories, it presents the coming of Jesus as the climax of Israel's history, and the events of his conception, birth, and early childhood as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The genealogy is probably traditional material that Matthew edited. In its first two sections (Matthew 1:2-11) it was drawn from Ruth 4:18-22; 1 Chron 1-3. Except for Jechoniah, Shealtiel, and Zerubbabel, none of the names in the third section (Matthew 1:12-16) is found in any Old Testament genealogy. While the genealogy shows the continuity of God's providential plan from Abraham on, discontinuity is also present. The women Tamar (Matthew 1:3), Rahab and Ruth (Matthew 1:5), and the wife of Uriah, Bathsheba (Matthew 1:6), bore their sons through unions that were in varying degrees strange and unexpected. These "irregularities" culminate in the supreme "irregularity" of the Messiah's birth of a virgin mother; the age of fulfillment is inaugurated by a creative act of God. Drawing upon both biblical tradition and Jewish stories, Matthew portrays Jesus as reliving the Exodus experience of Israel and the persecutions of Moses. His rejection by his own people and his passion are foreshadowed by the troubled reaction of "all Jerusalem" to the question of the magi who are seeking the "newborn king of the Jews" (Matthew 2:2-3), and by Herod's attempt to have him killed. The magi who do him homage prefigure the Gentiles who will accept the preaching of the gospel. The infancy narrative proclaims who Jesus is, the savior of his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21), Emmanuel in whom "God is with us" (Matthew 1:23), and the Son of God (Matthew 2:15).

² [1] The Son of David, the son of Abraham: two links of the genealogical chain are singled out. Although the later, David is placed first in order to emphasize that Jesus is the royal Messiah. The mention of Abraham may be due not only to his being the father of the nation Israel but to Matthew's interest in the universal scope of Jesus' mission; cf Genesis 22:18 ". . . . in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing."

³ [7] The successor of Abijah was not Asaph but Asa (see 1 Chron 3:10). Some textual witnesses read the latter name; however, Asaph is better attested. Matthew may have deliberately introduced the psalmist Asaph into the genealogy (and in Matthew 1:10 the prophet Amos) in order to show that Jesus is the fulfillment not only of the promises made to David (see 2 Sam 7) but of all the Old Testament.

⁴ [10] Amos: some textual witnesses read Amon, who was the actual successor of Manasseh (see 1 Chron 3:14).

⁵ [17] Matthew is concerned with fourteen generations, probably because fourteen is the numerical value of the Hebrew letters forming the name of David. In the second section of the genealogy (Matthew 1:6b-11), three kings of Judah, Ahaziah, Joash, and Amaziah, have been omitted (see 1 Chron 3:11-12), so that there are fourteen generations in that section. Yet the third (Matthew 1:12-16) apparently has only thirteen. Since Matthew here emphasizes that each section has fourteen, it is unlikely that the thirteen of the last was due to his oversight. Some scholars suggest that Jesus who is called the Messiah (Matthew 1:16b) doubles the final member of the chain: Jesus, born within the family of David, opens up the new age as Messiah, so that in fact there are fourteen generations in the third section. This is perhaps too subtle, and the hypothesis of a slip not on the part of Matthew but of a later scribe seems likely. On Messiah, see the note on Luke 2:11.

⁶ [18-25] This first story of the infancy narrative spells out what is summarily indicated in Matthew 1:16. The virginal conception of Jesus is the work of the Spirit of God. Joseph's decision to divorce Mary is overcome by the heavenly command that he take her into his home and accept the child as his own. The natural genealogical line is broken but the promises to David are fulfilled; through Joseph's adoption the child belongs to the family of David. Matthew sees the virginal conception as the fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14.

⁷ [18] Betrothed to Joseph: betrothal was the first part of the marriage, constituting a man and woman as husband and wife. Subsequent infidelity was considered adultery. The betrothal was followed some months later by the husband's taking his wife into his home, at which time normal married life began.

⁸ [19] A righteous man: as a devout observer of the Mosaic law, Joseph wished to break his union with someone whom he suspected of gross violation of the law. It is commonly said that the law required him to do so, but the texts usually given in support of that view, e.g., Deut 22:20-21 do not clearly pertain to Joseph's situation. Unwilling to expose her to shame: the penalty for proved adultery was death by stoning; cf Deut 22:21-23.

⁹ [20] The angel of the Lord: in the Old Testament a common designation of God in communication with a human being. In a dream: see Matthew 2:13, 19, 22. These dreams may be meant to recall the dreams of Joseph, son of Jacob the patriarch (Genesis 37:5-11:19). A closer parallel is the dream of Amram, father of Moses, related by Josephus (Antiquities 2,9,3; 212, 215-16).

¹⁰ [21] Jesus: in first-century Judaism the Hebrew name Joshua (Greek Iesous) meaning "Yahweh helps" was interpreted as "Yahweh saves."

¹¹ [23] God is with us: God's promise of deliverance to Judah in Isaiah's time is seen by Matthew as fulfilled in the birth of Jesus, in whom God is with his people. The name Emmanuel is alluded to at the end of the gospel where the risen Jesus assures his disciples of his continued presence,". . . I am with you always, until the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

¹² [25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated "until" does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it.

[Salvation]

This looks like the scallops recipe has tomato in it. Have you ever tried it with a white sauce?

[Cronos]

Or perhaps Gilgamesh?

[Cronos]

"The ark was a type of Christ" --> so are you saying that you believe that Christ was a type of container for God?

The Ark was not God, so are you saying that Christ was not God?

[bibletruth]

Proverbs 3:13 - 18 demonstrate that the word "she" is a reference to "Wisdom", e.g., Christ, not Mary.

The whole of the book of Proverbs is not a reference to Mary - it is a correct reference to Wisdom and is identified by God's Word in the feminine grammar mode, thus Wisdom is "she" but the whole book of Proverbs is really discussing the Wisdom of the Commandments of the LORD - who is Wisdom and who's Commandments are wise [wisdom] to grasp "her". Carefully read this post in whole...if at the end you still see "Mary" then as me again for further explaination.

Carefully read Proverbs 2:1ff and see the context for the word "HER" in chapter 2:

My son, if thou wilt receive my WORDS, and hide my COMMANDMENTS with thee; so that thou incline thine ear unto WISDOM, and apply thine heart to understanding, Yea, if thour criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; if thou seekest HER as silver, and searchest for HER as for hid treasures; then shat thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowlege of God. For the LORD giveth WISDOM: OUT OF HIS MOUTH COMETH KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTADING.

Now if you read this with honesty, does the word "HER" refer to Mary? or God's "words" and "commandments" and HIS "wisdom"? Search the words "and searchest for HER as for hid treasures" - and you will find that Colossians 2:3 writes: "In whom are hid all the treasures of WISDOM and knowledge. The context there in the previous verse (Colossians 2:2) IS CHRIST, not Mary! If these two Scriptures match in context, then CHRIST is WISDOM in Proverbs.

Again, carefully read Proverbs 3:1 to see what the context topic is:

My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my COMMANDMENTS.

Then later in Proverbs 3:11, we read:

verse 11: My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction... verse 13: Happy is the man that findeth WISDOM, and the man that getteth understanding... verse 15: SHE [which back references verse 13] is more precious than rubies...

Now if you read this with honesty, it is clear that WISDOM in verse 13 refers back to verse 11. God is using Proverbs chapter 2 and 3 to explain that WISDOM refers to HIS WORDS and COMMANDMENTS; For the LORD giveth WISDOM: OUT OF HIS MOUTH COMETH KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTADING. WISDOM here is the LORD's WORDS and COMMANDMENTS! It cannot be Mary's WORDS and COMMANDMENTS; Proverbs was written sometime during the years 950 BC and 700 BC - it was written to Jews - WHY would the Jews in 950 BC have an interest to know that WISDOM was really Mary (some 950 years before Mary was even born)?

Thus, Proverbs chapter 2 and 3 start out with discussing that the the LORD giveth WISDOM and his WORDS and COMMANDMENTS are WISDOM; after God says those clear statments about WISDOM, God does NOT next turn to Mary and say that she is a "tree of life"! The whole context of Proverbs chapter 2 and 3 is to demonstrate that WISDOM comes OUT OF HIS MOUTH, which is HIS WORDS and COMMANDMENTS; not Mary's WORDS and COMMANDMENTS.

Conclusion

Proverbs 3:18 She [Wisdom - the Pre-incarnate Christ] is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her [Wisdom]: and happy is every one that retaineth her [Wisdom - the Pre-incarnate Christ].

[Pyro7480]

Thanks for your effort to reply, but I don’t really care anymore.

If that's the case, then why did you make your initial post on this thread?

[ViLaLuz]

To discuss the topic with the poster.

[Mad Dawg]

Gilgamish is Ugaritic, right?

[Cronos]

Yes! I find the entire Sumerian-Akkadian-Assyrian triangle fascinating

[presently no screen name]

Proverbs 3:18
The Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden granted eternal physical life. See Genesis 3:22.

The Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:2) was for the healing of the nations. Therefore, this is saying that wisdom will produce healing effects in our bodies if we lay hold upon her. See Proverb 3:2.

Proverbs 3:19
Wisdom is the parent force for all of creation. Therefore, creation will always respond to its parent, God’s wisdom.

God’s Word is called the wisdom of God (Luke 11:49). So understanding God’s Word grants us wisdom and authority over creation. See Proverb 4:5 on knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.