The initiating premise of Calvinism is not our view man but our view of God. God is sovereign. He has the absolute right and power to do whatever he wants to do. All the rest flows from that. He has a right to give one man faith and leave another to his hardened heart, and no one can challenge his decision. Then all the election passages become readable in their direct and ordinary sense, gymnastics not required. There is a sense of relief that follows, a realization that the text means what it appears to mean.
From there one begins to look at why it must be so, how can it be fair, and only then realizes that God says very clearly that the sinful heart does not seek God, but rather is at war with him, and cannot be brought out of that state without a miracle. So all our pride, our feeling that we were smarter than someone else because we “figured out” how to believe in Jesus, that pride is dashed to pieces. We are left shaking like a leaf realizing how horrific our eternity might have been, had God not shown us mercy.
As for whether faith is a gift, there is a more basic question. If faith is not a gift, where did it come from?
1Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
I am content to agree with Paul. There is nothing I have that I didn’t get from somewhere, and that includes my faith. But if it came from somewhere other than me, from where or from whom did it come?
Jas 1:17-18 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
Is faith good? I hope we agree it is. Then it came from God.
Also, please note that James directly ties these good gifts from the Father with us becoming believers by God’s will.
Now, I know why you must qualify your non-gifted faith as “saving faith,” because Paul unmistakably identifies faith in general as one of the gifts of the Spirit:
1 Corinthians 12:7-9 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, …
So the Spirit does grant some a greater measure of faith than others, but that is not the same as arguing for two different kinds of faith, a non-supernatural “saving faith,” versus, what shall I call it, a supernatural “extra faith,” or “sanctification faith,” or whatever you may wish to call it. I am hard pressed to think of a Scripture anywhere that makes out your two categories of faith. I can see a single faith as applied to multiple situations, some to healing, some to patience in waiting for God’s will, some to accepting that Jesus is God’s Messiah, but until you can show me otherwise, I see only one kind of faith, differing only in degree and in object.
But if faith originates with us and not with God, how is it Paul starts his teaching on gifts by asserting that no one can call Jesus Lord but by that same Spirit who is distributing all those other gifts? Confessing Jesus as Lord is the very act of faith that separates believers from unbelievers, yet Paul says it cannot be done without the Spirit. How can that be, if by my own unregenerate faith I can conclude that Jesus is Lord?
It cannot be done, and in Hebrews 12:1 we find that we should not look to our own faith, but run the race of faith by:
Hebrews 12:2 …looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus is the cause, the author, of our faith. Without Jesus, who else would have the words of eternal life that we could turn to? Yet we have seen his miracles, and we have believed in him. He is the one who opened our eyes. Whom did the blind man in the temple wish to thank for his healing? Himself? Or Jesus? Jesus originates our faith, and brings it to its completion:
Luke 22:32 “But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
To whom does Jesus pray for Peter’s faith? God. Why? Because only God has the power to answer such a prayer. Jesus is here declaring that God can and will prevent Peter’s faith from failing. It is truly Peter’s faith, because God gave it to him. But it is not sustained by the natural powers of Peter, but by the mercy of God in keeping Peter faithful. Then, as Paul says, all pride, all boasting is excluded.
But you argue, that is only an enhancement of a faith that Peter started out with on his own. Really? Then why did Jesus say this when Peter confessed him as the Messiah?:
Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Now, last I checked, Peter was flesh and blood, so he is not the originator of this insight, this certainty that Jesus is the Messiah; it is grounded in a supernatural event, the revelatory work of God working in the mind of Peter, not in anything Peter had of his own fleshly nature. If belief in Jesus as Messiah is not a work of man’s flesh but of God’s Spirit, then what place is left for your “non-supernatural saving faith” theory? It is a novel theory indeed, but with no support in Scripture. And that is why I will probably never be able to adopt it.
There is much more in Scripture to argue that faith comes from a holy God and not from sinful man, but it’s getting late and this post is already too long, so I cede the floor to you, for now.
“The initiating premise of Calvinism is not our view man but our view of God. God is sovereign. He has the absolute right and power to do whatever he wants to do. All the rest flows from that. He has a right to give one man faith and leave another to his hardened heart, and no one can challenge his decision.”
Correct. God COULD have done so, but God says otherwise.
” 26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” - Genesis 1
What does it mean to be made in the image of God? Does God have a nose & ears? Or does it mean something else? Matthew Henry comments, “God’s image upon man consists in these three things:—1. In his nature and constitution, not those of his body (for God has not a body), but those of his soul...But it is the soul, the great soul, of man, that does especially bear God’s image. The soul is a spirit, an intelligent immortal spirit, an influencing active spirit, herein resembling God...The soul of man, considered in its three noble faculties, understanding, will, and active power, is perhaps the brightest clearest looking-glass in nature, wherein to see God.”
I believe Calvin argues that our spirit died in the fall, and thus needs to be miraculously raised to life before it can respond to God, yet we find in Genesis 4, after the fall, 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
There is no hint of determinism here. God says Cain has a choice, and we quickly find out what Cain chooses - but God says it is a real choice.
We find this throughout the scriptures. What of Abraham?
“5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” - Gen 15
He believed, and it was counted as righteousness, not he was made righteous and then believed.
God can do anything He pleases, and it pleased God to offer salvation by grace thru faith, not election. When Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1 - was he mocking the inability of man to repent, or calling them to do so? Why is it that in hundreds of passages about believing and faith, not ONCE does God say, “If I choose you, I will give you faith to make you live”?
Instead, we read, “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” - John 20 This is not hidden, and it is explicit and clear: “that by believing you may have life in his name”!
What did Peter preach at Pentecost? “21And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’...Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.” - Acts 2
Repentance precedes the gift of the Holy Spirit. We are not born again to believe, as Calvin teaches, but believe to be born again.
“Then all the election passages become readable in their direct and ordinary sense, gymnastics not required. There is a sense of relief that follows, a realization that the text means what it appears to mean.”
I don’t have a problem with the handful of election passages - for there are only about 30 verses total concerning it. We are dead IN ADAM. We are elect IN CHRIST. To a tribal people - and the Jews were tribal - the founder of the tribe is the source of their being. There is a corporate identity that western society rejects, but that is valid in tribal society. In Afghanistan, if the person of one tribe has harmed you, you can demand restitution from another member of the tribe and they are responsible for it. For some crimes, it is acceptable to kill members of the tribe for 7 generations.
There are many articles on corporate election here: http://evangelicalarminians.org/taxonomy/term/21
That is how tribal societies think, and apparently God does as well. IN ADAM, we are dead. IN CHRIST, we have life. Election is IN CHRIST.
Think of Christ as a ship sailing to God. By grace, thru faith, you are placed on the ship. The ship is sailing, and it WILL reach port. All are offered passage, but only those who believe the promise will board in faith - and they are all chosen by the Master to be brought to him.
The election passages do NOT make sense if interpreted thru individual election, because that would put them in conflict with the hundreds of verses discussing our choice, our will, and the need to believe the promise of God.
“I am content to agree with Paul. There is nothing I have that I didn’t get from somewhere, and that includes my faith.”
The passage you cite reads “ 6I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?”
Please note is is talking about revelation, not faith. (Fuller context here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+4&version=ESV)
No man reaches up to heaven and grasps God. God reaches down to us and reveals himself to us. All revelation from God is a gift to us. But you must not go beyond the revelation of God, and delve into areas that God hasn’t revealed. This is consistent with Paul’s command not to indulge in vain speculation. Keep to what is written! And that is what I would say to Calvinists - keep to what God has written! Believe to live, not live to believe! Hold fast to what God has revealed:
16”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3
“Now, I know why you must qualify your non-gifted faith as “saving faith,” because Paul unmistakably identifies faith in general as one of the gifts of the Spirit...I am hard pressed to think of a Scripture anywhere that makes out your two categories of faith.”
That is OK - I’m hard pressed to think of a passage that speaks of two calling - an irresistible one to salvation, and an unobeyable one to damnation. But Jesus said faith is something he FOUND, something that comes from the person:
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
There are many gifts of the Spirit, and faith is one: “to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.”
That is obviously not the faith that saves us, for everyone in the church has that, but a special gift: “Verse 9. To another faith. Another shall be distinguished for simple confidence in God; and his endowment is also given by the same Spirit. Many of the most useful men in the church are distinguished mainly for their simple confidence in the promises of God; and often accomplish more by prayer and by their faith in God than others do who are distinguished for their wisdom and learning. Humble piety and reliance in the Divine promises, and that measure of ardour, fearlessness, and zeal, which result from such confidence; that belief that all obstacles must be and will be overcome that oppose the gospel, and that God will secure the advancement of his cause, will often do infinitely more in the promotion of his kingdom than the most splendid endowments of learning and talent.” Barnes Commentary.
Yet that is the ONLY sense in which faith is spoken of as a gift. When Jesus rebukes the disciples for their lack of faith, why is it? Is he rebuking them because he didn’t give them the faith, or because he requires them to have faith? If the only way you can have money is for me to give it to you, and I give you $20, can I get angry with you for having only $20?
I need to go now, but will write more later. I do thank you for the civil and scripture based discussion. Neither your opinion nor mine matters, only what God has said.
” 31”Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” - Luke 22 / “To whom does Jesus pray for Peter’s faith? God. Why? Because only God has the power to answer such a prayer. Jesus is here declaring that God can and will prevent Peter’s faith from failing. It is truly Peter’s faith, because God gave it to him.”
No, it is truly Peter’s faith. Otherwise there would be no reason for praying, since God would be responsible for giving Peter sufficient faith, and God doesn’t fail. It only makes sense if Peter’s faith will be tested, and he will need help to pass the test.
Also consider Barmes: “Verse 32. That thy faith fail not. The word faith, here, seems to be used in the sense of religion, or attachment to Christ, and the words fail not mean utterly fail or fail altogether—that is, apostatize. It is true that the courage of Peter failed; it is true that he had not that immediate confidence in Jesus and reliance on him which he had before had; but the prayer of Jesus was that he might not altogether apostatize from the faith.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=022
Hebrews 12: From Barnes, “The author and finisher of our faith. The word “our” is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith, or of confidence in God—occupying in this, as in all other things, the preeminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word “author” \~archgon\~— (marg, beginner)— means, properly, the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Acts 3:16, Acts 5:31, prince; in Hebrews 2:10, captain; and in the place before us, author. It does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. The phrase, “the beginner of faith,” or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe —whatever may be the truth about that—but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith. We are exhorted to look to him, as if at the Grecian games there was one who stood before the racer who had previously carried away every palm of victory; who had always been triumphant, and with whom there was no one who could be compared.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=012
The NIV has it, “ 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
If it means that Jesus gives and perfects our faith, then we have nothing to set our eyes on, for Jesus is responsible for the outcome. But the context is of looking to the example of Jesus and following his example, and this comes as the real conclusion of chapter 11 - the chapter that lists so many examples for us to follow. None of which is needed if God gives us faith irresistibly, but all of it makes sense if faith is something inside us responding to God, something we can encourage and are responsible for having.
If faith comes from God, then he can never fault any of us for lacking it, since he is giving according to his desire. But faith means “belief that is not based on proof”. God promises salvation to all who believe his word, and doing so without conclusive proof is what faith means.
“If belief in Jesus as Messiah is not a work of man’s flesh but of God’s Spirit, then what place is left for your “non-supernatural saving faith” theory? It is a novel theory indeed, but with no support in Scripture. And that is why I will probably never be able to adopt it.”
The REVELATION of God is the work of God. Man’s response to it is either to believe (faith) to salvation, or reject it to death. In Acts 13, Paul tells the Jews, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.”
Those who reject God’s revelation go to death. Those who believe it are saved by grace thru faith. But it is revelation that God provides man, and THAT is completely scriptural. It is God reaching to us, not us reaching to God - yet not all those he reaches out to accept.
“1And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.” - Matt 22
In speaking of believing and faith, it is often in response to something. Here are some scriptures where believe follows some incentive to believe:
Jhn 20:8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Act 9:42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord.
Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom
they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Consider Romans 10:10 - “Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
Young’s literal translation has it “10for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;”
It is true Calvin says this faith is implanted in our heart by God, and then we believe, but that is NOT what the scripture says. He reads that in based on his misunderstanding of being dead in sin, but what scripture says speaks for itself: “For with the heart one believes...”
One is the subject, and believes is the verb. It is what we do, not what is done to us. And we believe TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, not that we are made righteous to be able to believe. This is plain language, and doesn’t need a seminary to teach the hidden meaning. “For with the heart one believes and is justified...”
There is no scriptural warrant for claiming that belief and faith are gifts given after we are born again. John 20 is explicit as well: “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” Believing comes before life, not life before belief. It is contrary to Calvinism, but a simple statement of God’s word.