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To: Springfield Reformer

No, I just showed you that they taught contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Their hated for the Jewish people was not a personal error, it was their flawed teaching to the church. What you should learn from knowing this about them (which you obviously already knew) is that it reveals something very wrong with their hearts (how can you say you love God who you have not seen and hate...) very, very wrong. Discern their character, it is not hidden in their many pamphlets and publications and then ask...should I really be putting so much confidence in this man? Do I want to follow this guy?


67 posted on 11/21/2010 11:06:50 PM PST by reflecting (Calvinism: when physics is just too hard)
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To: reflecting

Part of the problem is that we are judging this from the perch of clear dual sovereignty in church state relations. Back in their day, they saw no special distinction between the two, and it did lead to error in judgment, Calvin with Servantus in particular. But really, it is difficult to argue their heart motive as hatred. I understand your reasoning from John, but I am not so willing as you to try and peer inside their heart and see what I think only God can really see.

For example, Gargantua here has been very hard with me. It feels like hatred, but I don’t really know. I can dispute his words and teachings, and I do, but I cannot judge the inner workings of his heart. That’s above my pay grade.

So Calvin and Luther to me are likewise men of their times. They saw the world the way they were conditioned to see it. The errors they made, you have not shown to be relevant to the specific teaching being questioned on this thread. Furthermore, you have not even shown the teaching was unique to them, which is essential to your approach. Arguably, the Calvinist framework, at least in some incipient form, can be traced back to Augustine, and frankly I find it stands quite well on it’s own in the Biblical text. Thus, while I respect the contributions of the reformers, I no more follow them than I follow you. I follow the word, wherever it leads, and it does lead to roughly the same place it led them, at least with respect to the doctrines of grace.


75 posted on 11/22/2010 12:43:38 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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