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To: dartuser
That would be the normal dispensational view ... yes.

So what was it about my description of the dispensational kingdom that you objected to?

If you have mortal believers inhabiting your millennial kingdom, then you still have to deal with sin and death and misery. People naturally grow old and die (as indicated in Isaiah 65). And we know that sin is still present since Satan is able to turn the nations and amass a huge army to go up against the camp of the saints at the end (Rev. 20).

You said that I “have no clue what the dispensationalist believes.” But yet I have just articulated what appears to be the common dispensational theology on the situation in the millennial kingdom.

So, where’s the beef?

54 posted on 12/16/2010 9:19:07 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
OK ... let me try to explain without getting too winded.

If you have mortal believers inhabiting your millennial kingdom, then you still have to deal with sin and death and misery.

Yes ... with some clarifying points:

The dispensational view has the second coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation period; followed by a judgment called the first resurrection. The text of Revelation identifies who the people are that are judged. It is believers who were killed during the tribulation period (those that survive will be dealt with shortly). Dispensationalists view this as a counterpart to the bema seat judgment of Christ that you and I shall experience in heaven while the events of the tribulation on earth are taking place. But this judgment is only for those believers killed in the tribulation. That they are only believers is evident ... "blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection." After the first resurrection, Jesus Christ then sets up the millennial reign (MK for short).

You have our view of Matt 24 correct, one taken and one left. The ones taken are taken away into judgment at the return of Christ ... there is no rapture in Matt 24.

What is the nature of the believers that are left on earth? Just like us today. They were saved during the tribulation and survived it. Regenerate, but not possessing a resurrection body yet. Since they are just like us today they will obviously still struggle with sin.

What about death? The passage you mentioned (and I see that Isaiah passage as an MK passage) suggests that there will still be death. I have not studied enough on the textual issues in the original language (I can read Greek but not Hebrew) to study all the details ... but at least in most English versions it seems to say that death will still be part of the nature of things.

One dispensationalist (a converted Jew) supports the position that death will be confined to unbelievers only and believers will all live for the entire MK. I'm not sure how he arrives at that from this passage, but you can kinda see how he would argue that point. I don't have an opinion on the topic at this time.

Misery ... I think the passage shows that there will be no more misery in the kingdom. And I think there are excellent reasons for that:

Jesus Christ will rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem. What does that mean? Many dispensationalists view that as representative of the swiftness of judgment that Christ will execute on unbelievers who blatantly rebel against His rule. He will reign with perfect justice and righteousness ... misery will be gone.

The created order will certainly undergo drastic changes. The prophets foretell many changes happen in the MK ... perfect control of weather, suppression of natural disasters, no sickness and disease, taming of the animal kingdom. The curse of the earth will be removed causing a super abundance of food and wine (i.e. no hunger in the millennium).

And we know that sin is still present since Satan is able to turn the nations and amass a huge army to go up against the camp of the saints at the end (Rev. 20).

The dispensational view is that Satan is bound during the millennial kingdom. He nor his cohorts will be on the scene deceiving anyone. They will be out of the picture. The only sin that will exist during the millennium will be due to unrepentant humans, whether regenerate or not.

What about Satans release?

Now ... this is important. ... Dispensationalists view Psalm 2 as an MK passage; specifically, the conditions toward the end (perhaps just before the end) of the millennial reign. Look at the whole Psalm ... but notice what the passage says about the people and nations and rulers ... they will say ... "let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us." Even after 1000 years of peace and prosperity, there will be a portion of unbelieving man who will despise the rule of Christ over their lives in the MK. By the end of the MK there will be enough malcontents for Satan to round up that they actually align with him thinking they will finally be able to "cast their cords from us."

You said that I “have no clue what the dispensationalist believes.” But yet I have just articulated what appears to be the common dispensational theology on the situation in the millennial kingdom. So, where’s the beef?

In the heat of the moment I flew off the handle ... and I humbly retract my beef.

Now ... in the spirit of bipartisanship (man I hate that term) ... how do you view Isaiah 65? When does that happen ... or when did that happen if it has been fulfilled already? What counterpoints do you bring from your perspective against the points I have outlined?

Also, is there a particular source (a book or paper) you find covers all the points of your view? As iron sharpens iron we can both benefit from hashing out our views against the backdrop of those who see it differently. I welcome the exchange and certainly don't have all the answers from my perspective.

As I have said many times ... eschatology is a "matter of conscience" issue, not critical to salvation. And we who are passionate sometimes expect that when we bring one point of contention against an opposing view that the entire theological system of the accused should crumble at that point. You and I have invested years into our theological views and it would take lots and lots of counterpoints to change our view now. That is the position I have going in. I don't expect you will drop your view when I whack you over the head with some point. I'm sure you don't expect me to abandon my worldview when you bloody me either.

Theology is important ... doctrine is important ... but let us all endeavor to make sure our desire for theological studies does not lead to "knowledge that puffs up."

58 posted on 12/16/2010 3:00:11 PM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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