Posted on 12/16/2010 12:39:28 PM PST by marshmallow
Both abject heresies which are nowhere to be found in the writings of the early Church Fathers, as Irenaeus here makes abundantly clear.
Ping!
All humans have free will and can choose right or wrong. This is in direct opposition to official leftist dogma that says that we have no free will and therefore have no responsibility for our actions.
What amazes me is that “Free Will” as a theological issue is never raised when discussing Islam and its tenets as in
http://www.theusmat.com/islamandfreewill.htm
Love unconditionally and freely given from a sentient being is the greatest gift we can give God and each other. The question one must pose to those who dismiss or diminish the concept of free will is if God had not wanted us to love Him freely why did He not create us incapable of not loving Him.
Just because one believes it, how does anyone really know if they could have chosen differently? Is there any way to prove it after the choice is made?
Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (ad. 354 – ad. 420/440). It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which God called very good), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. - Foreknown Encyclopedia
Joh 6:43-44 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.
Irenaeus can be forgiven. He didn't have the Internet.
Where does Irenaeus claim that man can be saved without Divine aid?
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One of the most fun things to do in a debate with a leftist/atheist who doesn’t believe in free will.
Tell how they sound like a Calvanist in a tone that suggests you agree with them... idiots will sit there and agree with you.
That's a real side-splitter. Fess up........you've never read Irenaeus.
From the above chapter:
"All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us."
And again:
"But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
That doesn't sound like Pelagianism.
Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power
Compulsion-a force that compels
Without Compulsion - without a force that compels
We, of course, have to excuse Irenaeus since the Church would not condemn the Pelagius heresy for another 300 years. Many of the early fathers were more interested in trying to get the church to grow rather than putting together a systematic view of scripture.
While you have framed this in a rather snide way ... the assurance of salvation is taught in the scriptures. I don't know how you can dismiss or interpret away 1 John 5:13. I have never heard a Catholic exegete this passage in a way that doesn't just dismiss it out-of-hand.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
"that you have" ... Present Active Indicative 2nd Person Plural. No ambiguity in the Greek tense at all.
Both abject heresies which are nowhere to be found in the writings of the early Church Fathers, as Irenaeus here makes abundantly clear
Perhaps you could find all the writings of the church fathers where they explain 1 John 5:13. Esp. Irenaeus ... who was a great-grandchild in the Lord of John himself.
So when the Church condemned Pelagius it overlooked Irenaeus........LOL..??
What sort of mindset drives a man to condescendingly ("we, of course, have to excuse Irenaeus....") label one of the early Church Fathers a heretic?
Even a modicum of humility would give a sane person pause.
This is not Pelagianism;
"For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9 but the man who does not obtain it is the cause to himself of his own imperfection.
The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves."
What he says, is that men will be held accountable by God for the uses to which they put their free will.
The Bible is quite clear on two things: that God is sovereign, and tht we are responsible. What's in the middle is a mystery.
Grace does not compel, grace enables.
Yes, it is a popular idea because the Lord Jesus Christ said it. He used the word "Elect" at least 10 times in the Gospels and of "Irresistible Grace" - have you never seen John 6: 37-65? Where the Lord Jesus Christ said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them..." and "He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Note here it is the Father doing the work, Not the Son.
You must pay attention to the Lord Jesus Christ and not dismiss His Words!
I’m neither a Calvanist, leftist nor an atheist, yet I doubt we truly have free will. After a choice is made, how would you prove you could have chosen otherwise, besides just saying you could have?
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. It doesn't follow that the Father irresistably compels them to come to Jesus.
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