Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
very nice....let’s see how the anti marian crowd twists those words of the very leaders they themselves credit with ‘restoring’ the ‘true’ faith....
#1 It really doesn’t matter what those men believed. Some of it is *pure* speculation. She had other children with Joseph, so she could not be a perpetual “virgin” for one.
#2 However, I believe some of it as well and I believe Mary should be thought of in a very high regard.
#3 That does not mean that you can a) pray to Mary or b) have Mary intercede on your behalf as both of those are unbiblical.
It seems the main problem I have always had with the “perpetual virginity” argument is the least defensible, even by Calvin, as noted in your post: he “interprets” the translation to mean cousins, etc. (isn’t it clear that James was “the brother of Jesus”?). I just can’t go there: I firmly believe that Mary was a virgin when the Holy Spirit came upon her, and that she remained a virgin right through the birth of Christ, but after that, I can find absolutely no scriptural support for her remaining so. And in my mind (and my faith), it just doesn’t matter that she had normal marital relations with the faithful Joseph after Christ’s birth. That does nothing to detract from the honor done her by God or the faithful way in which she accepted His will.
I greatly appreciate your thoughtful analysis and your genuine seeker’s faith. Thanks for the post.
Colonel, USAFR
Eh. Catholics seem to quote Luther and Calvin to Protestants as if we simply replaced the Catholic Pope with Luther and Calvin. Luther and Calvin may have agreed with the Catholic Church about Mary’s perpetual virginity. I still don’t.
SnakeDoc
The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary's virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn't break. St. Augustine said "Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass"....This was confirmed by Pope Paul IV and many others before and after. If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary's womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain.
-- from the thread Did Mary retain her virginal integrity while giving birth to Jesus?
I have no idea why you weren’t taught these things as a Protestant but, Good Luck.
As a fallen-away Methodist, I would agree with your take on Mary. I would feel very uncomfortable praying to Mary or asking for intercession.
How true.
Just because someone says it (popes included) doesn’t make it so.
What does Scripture say?
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary refers to “God my Saviour.” Odd she would say that were she truly born sinless herself.
Hoss
No time like Advent to get back on Wesley’s horse! There’s been a great resurgence of actual scriptural Christianity in the UMC in the last decade, as the ‘60s and ‘70s social activists get older, fatter and turn into bishops where they can’t do direct harm to the believers in the pews. Check out Methodist Renewal Movement.
And have a great and blessed Christmas!
It is a mystery why you and I, and others, are now come into a cocoon, where the treasures are hidden from the masses, the world, while in plain sight. How far removed from the early Church we have come, particularly in the USA—from that early Church Christ established in Peter, standing over the old gates of Hell. It is truly a miracle to take that first scary step approaching the Church, through the gauze of slander, lies, mis-information and near clinically proportioned ignorance and bias of and against Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church. It is as if the power of the Holy Spirit moved mightily from the power of the heart for Jesus, to the head, and the power of Reason which emboldens the soul by way of Wisdom. Can I ever live up to all I have learned, and be once saved always saved? Of course not. But the striving is the Way of the Cross, and the state of Grace is availed to the People of God, and I try to rest in his Mercy, for now knowing, I carry a heavier weight and responsibility for obedience, discipline, piety and conscience, by His Grace.
Good for you.
As to Mary's perpetual virginity, I don't really care what those quoted have said. I know what scripture says in, for example, Matthew 1:25
Hi Colonel and Eric,
Eric..I agree with the Colonel. I am a UMC ministry candidate and certified Lay Speaker. I have never had a congregation turn on me, or resent my presence when I have give a theologically (or socially for that matter) conservative sermon. There are many of us within the UMC working on turning it back to sound biblical princples. Come join us!
Hi Rita,
I hope you have a Blessed Christmas. I think the actual issue here is, many of us Protestants simply see things in the catechism of the Roman Catholic Chrurch that arent in Scripture. I am an ex-catholic. I became a Protestant while serving in the Army, when I met and became friendly with a Protestant Chaplain. The whole issue of purgatory, confession of sins to a Priest, and the Priest determining what one’s penance is, in order to be forgiven, when the Scripture tells all we need to do is repent of our sins. I could go on and on, and I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, but their insistence that the RCC is the “One true faith” gets a little old at times.
You got it. bttt
Yes, Mary needed a Savior, too.
Rom. 3:10 "There is none good but one, that is, God."
“#1 It really doesn’t matter what those men believed. Some of it is *pure* speculation. She had other children with Joseph, so she could not be a perpetual “virgin” for one.”
Who were these children?
“#3 That does not mean that you can a) pray to Mary or b) have Mary intercede on your behalf as both of those are unbiblical.”
Can I intercede on behalf of you?
Of course she did. Why do you think Christ chose her, before she was born?
Christ kept her from sin right from the beginning.
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